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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elric" data-source="post: 1320723" data-attributes="member: 1139">Ok, here is DM_Matt’s half ogre from before, with a couple of changes.  Note that the half-ogre is more powerful than a classed character by level 4.HOgre Barb1/Fighter2Str: 22 (16+ 6)Dex: 14 (16 -2)Con: 16 (14 +2)Int: 10 (12 -2)Wis: 8 (8)Cha: 8 (10-2)Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)AC: 15 + armor (10-1size+2dex+4Nat)HP: 33 (15+9+9)Speed: 40Attack: Greatsword +9, DMG 3d6+9 w/ 2for1 power attack, cleave, 3 AOOs/round (AV DMG: 19.5, up to 25.5 with PA)...I also recommend a masterword GS to help that bab up to +10Saves: Fort +8, Ref +2, Will -1Note that the orc is not a particularly good basis for comparison with the half-ogre, since the question is really about balance compared to PC races.  Plus, I’ve seen two half-ogres in action, but strangely, no one wants to play an orc… too freaking uglyOrc Barb 2/Fighter 2Str: 20 (16 + 4)Dex: 16 (15 +1 level)Con: 14 (14)Int: 10 (12-2)Wis 8 (10-2)Cha 8 (10-2)Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus: Greatsword, 1 more feat which is probably nowhere near as good as combat reflexes is for the half-ogre.AC: 13 + armorHP: 39 (14+ 9 + 8 + 8)Speed: 40Saves: Fort +8, Reflex +3, Will -1Attack: Greatsword +10, dmg 2d6+7.5 (since the strength choices are a little arbitrary, I’ll give him the extra half-point of damage).  Average dmg 14.5.  It will usually be worth it to power attack for 1 (unless you hit less than half the time which, since I haven’t taken masterwork weapons or magic into account, shouldn’t happen very often).  He also has the daylight penalties, which I could incorporate as something like -0.5 to hit, but I’m going to be nice and ignore them.  Note that the PH race, the ½ Orc, has -2 Str, +2 Wis and no daylight penalty by comparison.  And he’s as good as it gets for a fighter-type in the PH.  So, on the defensive end, in return for 18% extra HP, the HOgre gets hit 10% less.  If the orc is hit 60% of the time (estimate- seems pretty reasonable), the HOgre is hit 50% of the time.  This puts the number of strikes to drop the HOgre at 20% extra, so the half-ogre is actually very slightly ahead on defense.  The half-ogre has 1 point worse on his reflex save, but is immune the person spells, making his will save less important.On offense, these characters are very good, so assume that the HOgre hits 60% of the time—then, the orc should power attack for 1, at least.  So, the Orc now hits 60% of the time as well, for 16.5 damage.  The HOgre does 11.7 damage/round to his opponent, not counting criticals.  Then, criticals add another 1.2, so 12.9 damage/roundBut there’s a huge variable missing in all of this- the Half-Ogre has reach!  He’s a demon with cleave, a demon with combat reflexes and a demon when you actually put him in a party.  I’m comparing him to a no-daylight-penalty Orc, which is far and away the best ECL 0 fighter type race.What happens if you try to give the Orc reach?  It isn’t pretty. Orc Barb 2/Fighter 2Str: 20 (16 + 4)Dex: 16 (15 +1 level)Con: 14 (14)Int: 10 (12-2)Wis 8 (10-2)Cha 8 (10-2)Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus: Greatsword, EWP: Spiked ChainAC: 13 + armorHP: 39 (14+ 9 + 8 + 8)Speed: 40Saves: Fort +8, Reflex +3, Will -1Attack: Spiked Chain +10, dmg 2d4+7.5 (since the strength choices are a little arbitrary, I’ll give him the extra half-point of damage).  Average dmg 12.5.  Crit x2 now.Special: Uncanny Dodge- this is a valuable ability, but notice that the ACs for the two characters are still the same when they are flatfooted.Since your damage is suddenly terrible, power attack is more valuable.  Say that you power attack for 2 on an opponent that you hit 65% of the time normally, bringing your damage back up to 16.5.  Now, you do 9.1 damage/round against this imaginary opponent, not counting criticals.  Adding criticals adds 0.45 damage, so 9.55 overall.That’s a 135% damage ration for the HOgre.  This is level 4, against an Orc with no daylight penalties, a race that is almost certainly too strong for ECL +0 (not that it’s anything but awful at ECL +1).  With the exception of the level 6 characters, things only get worse for the orc from here.edit- fixed a typo.</blockquote>

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