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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6937332" data-attributes="member: 4937">All RPGs that depend on a fortune system are limited to a range defined by the limits of that system.  For example, GURPS starts breaking down when the active defenses start getting so high that only failures are critical, and the only hits are critical.  That's defined by GURPS fortune range of 3-18, so that once you get 'bonuses' in the 13 to 15 range rolling for fortune is no longer fun.  It is both too predictable and fails too unpredictably and catastrophically on the rare occasions that it does fail.The same thing happens in D20 when people start getting bonuses up around +19, and most specifically and throughly, when the gap between any two players bonuses gets up around +19.  For example, you get into situations where the Rogue can only fail a reflex save on a 2, but at the same level of DC, the cleric might only make a reflex save on a 20.  Or, the monsters AC may be such that the fighter can only fail to hit on a 1, but the wizard needs a 20 to hit.  And as more and more things have to be overwhelming to be threatening, more and more the game starts being about achieving absolute and complete immunity to any conceivable threat, and the more and more logical response to any threat is, "If you can't beat it down by the end of the first round, pull out with a mass teleport and regroup."In D&D in particular, the higher the level that you go, the more unpredictable and the more diverse any groups bonuses might become.  Some character might have 40 AC, and another 70 AC - a gap of 30.   With gaps like that, it becomes impossible to plan interesting group encounters, since any monster that can hit the 70 AC even 50% of the time, can Power Attack to squash flat the character with 40 AC.  If one party member has a +35 will save, and another has a +17 will save, then anything that threatens the mind of the more powerful character even 15% of the time, reliably dominates the other.  This reaches the point where PC's responding functionally to the system have to say, "We can't ever have a situation where our will save matters if we hope to survive.  We have ensure everyone goes around with Mindblank up and other complete immunities at all times."What your players have done with the Epic armor spell is a functional response to an inherent system problem with the gap between player capabilities.  Essentially, they've forced you into a situation where AC doesn't matter, because they have complete immunity to normal attacks.   And anything you'd try to do to make AC matter again, would crush the players on the low end of the gap.  Sooner or later, they are going to take away not just circumvent a central playing mechanic, but all play mechanics.  And frankly, that is the only way that they can survive.  So, what you'll find is that either your players face roll encounters without real opposition or effort, or the encounters face roll them without real tension - and there is nothing that exists in the in between.   And yes, you are screwed, because fundamentally this is lodged in the math.Both 4e and 5e in their own way in the essential elements of their design can be thought of as attempts to address that gap problem.</blockquote>

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