Old DM New to High Level Adventures - Help

[RJSmalls]

Background: I've been DMing since about 1986. I started with OD&D and gradually transitioned into a bastardized RPG fashioned from Rolemaster, AD&D, and tons of house rules. 3E came along and re-ignited my interest in gaming. Got together with the old group and we've been campaigning now for about 2 years (but only meeting 3-4 times yearly due to geographic reasons).

My Problem: The group has just achieved an average of 10th level. Up to this point, I've been OK. But now I'm scared. Why? I'm starting to see the power of a spellcaster with access to higher level spells. In my old campaigns the PC's either died prior to the high levels, we quit for whatever reason, or I ran a low-magic campaign wherein high level casters didn't show up too often. How do you fellow DM's handle high level spellcasters?

The Specifics: Improved Invisibility? Polymorph Other? It seems hard for me to swallow the realization that one unlucky saving throw could mean my BBEG is now a hairless bat. I'm not as worried about my own enjoyment - I'm concerned the non-spellcasting PC's may feel like they're 'along for the ride.' The sorcerer already seems overpowered compared to the other characters; he throws down fireball after fireball while being (Improved) Invisible or stunts the bad dudes with Slow spell after Slow spell. Throw in Haste, and he can just fire down-range until eventually the bad guy fails his save or SR check.

Summary: I guess I'm just looking for DM's experienced with the higher levels to pat me on the head, tell me that the game is still balanced, and assure me that all types of character classes can still feel equally important in the scheme of things. I don't want to metagame against the sorcerer (i.e., throwing tons of magically immune or resistant baddies at him); that just seems to cheapen everything. Help?

 

[Piratecat]

Welcome to my world. The PCs in my group were just about 11th or 12th lvl when we started playtesting 3e - high for 2nd edition - and now, three or four years later, the highest lvl PC just hit 20th. Not one level has gone by when I haven't had the same fear you have, and the same initial inferiority complex. "Is this going to be too easy?" I keep asking myself.

On the other hand, the player with the 18th lvl cleric recently said, "Why is it that whenever we go up a level, I feel like we're less able to handle the challenges that we're facing?" I might be doing something right.

My best advice to you would be to take a leap of faith, trust the rules, and not house rule anything if at all possible. Let the PCs use the powerful attack and divination spells. Let them get used to their power. My game has stayed supremely balanced, and the arcane casters haven't dominated! 3.5 will tweak high-lvl class balance a little, but it's already extremely sturdy.

I also strongly recommend that you skim some of the high-lvl story hours and steal ideas. Sepulchrave, (contact), Wulf, myself - anyone who's run into this probably has some wisdom buried in their campaign logs. I think that your best solution is to use a variety of bad guy strategies, and rely on tactics. For instance, one bad guy putting an invisible wall of force right in front of Mr. Fireball is going to keep things exciting while stopping him from dominating the encounter (nothing says loving like having your own spell detonate 10' away from you). Occasional bad guys will be flame retardant, other bad guys might know how to counterspell or use silence, but thank goodness there should still be lots of enemies who DO go up like dry kindling in California foothills, so you remind the sorcerer's player how happy he is that he took fireball. It's all in maintaining balanced encounters.

Bad guys die; they always do. The only difference is that now they'll die in other ways, some faster and some slower. If you make sure those ways are still fun for the players, then you can do no wrong. I've seen groups cheer when a bad guy fails his save on a disintegrate in round one! It's more memorable than many longer fights, and good for a lot of laughter, so I can't say it was a "bad" death. Just an unanticipated one.

You know, I'd never have thought it, but I'm having more fun with my avg. 17th-18th lvl game than I was at lower levels. Hopefully, you'll find the same.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Hmmm...well, I would refer you to some excellent discussion in the "Castles of Crystal and Wars of Genocide!" thread. There is a broad range of ideas and discussion there that you may find useful.

The trick with high-level campaigning is that you, as the DM, have to embrace all of the rules, and let the opposition arm up with the same kind of goodies the player characters do. Let the opposition play smart, like they should be at high level. Don't pull any punches, and don't think that every encounter has to be perfectly "balanced." Make the players sweat by throwing lots of enemies of various levels at them *at the same time*. Don't let the players have all the time in the world to plan every action and strategy perfectly. Give them ten seconds to decide what to do, and then hammer them. Again, and again, and again. Don't let them have any time to breathe, rest, or plan. Pursue them, even with hordes of lower level characters or monsters for example, spiced by a few jigher level characters. Pursue, pursue, pursue. Run them ragged, exhaust their spells, exhaust their toys, and make them fear.

To avoid getting hammered too bad, the players must:

(1) Have their action plans mapped out before hand;

(2) The players must be well-versed, and flexible in their powers and abilities; they have to be able to think quickly on their feet;

(3) Be wholly united and commited to working together and in being courageous;

(4) The players have to develop a ruthless streak to survive in such a hostile environment; they have to make decisions, and follow through with them even if they are difficult or painful, for themselves, or others to endure.

(5) Expect that the enemies at this level are going to be well equipped, intelligent, united, and utterly ruthless. The players should expect to suffer casualties.

(6) To survive at high levels, the players must not adopt the attitude that they are invincible, for they are clearly not. Dispel that myth from them quickly. The players must be prepared to retreat, or even on occasion, run like crazy, even at high levels.

Keeping some of these considerations in mind, and reading some of the discussion in the thread I mentioned, as well as Piratecat's comments, should equip you very well for high level campaigning!

Good luck, and feel free to ask any questions!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Meds]

My campaign is also long-term and high-level, and I can only echo the sound advice given above (and shudder at the mistakes I've made in the past).

I have found Piratecat's story hour particularly enlightening:
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?&threadid=779

I also like Monte Cook's advice on high-level adventure design:
http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly16.html

...who DO go up like dry kindling in California foothills...

Hey, be careful where you're throwing those jinxes!
<Turns to window. Scans foothills nervously.>

 

[ashockney]

High Level Advice

The advice above is fantastic.

I would add:

1) Don't hestitate to throw challenges of higher and higher caliber against your well-equipped party.

2) Use tactics and power that the players can use to thwart their machinations.

3) Don't hesitate to use creatures that have immunities and resistances. The books are FILLED with them for a reason! By the "highest" levels, you really have no choice but to load down many BBEG with resistances and immunities if you want them to have any chance of surviving an encounter with the party.

 

[Angelsboi]

Ask Glenn (Olgar Shiverstone). We're 5th level and play every other week but let me tell you ... if he's using the tactics he's using now, we'll never make it high

 

[Piratecat]

One of the most interesting things I found when my group hit high level is that I could occasionally throw encounters at them that I had no idea how they were going to solve, and lo and behold they solved them. That's an unusual kind of freedom.

Because you're not playing as frequently, be a little careful about that. I wouldn't expect your players to immediately remember every resource that they have access to.

 

[Marius Delphus]

Indeed, one key to high-level adventuring is the sheer number of options available to a sufficiently creative group. The DM's challenge is to keep things interesting while not throwing an overwhelming force in the PCs' way "just because."

Let the PCs revel in their abilities, as mentioned earlier. However, many interesting encounters grow from the occasional situations where the PCs *could* cut loose but *mustn't*... as when they must defend "soft" targets (whether stationary or moving) or rescue a fragile maguffin (whether living or inanimate).

Make the PCs think up *new* tactics. High-level nasties are sometimes able to see invisible (for some reason) or make flight irrelevant (for some other reason). If the PCs are (justly) famous, then word of their tactics might be getting around, and the major Evil power players in the area might just be girding themselves for a dust-up with them. That's not to say that they'll *always* use tactics that *work*... but at these levels the BBEGs, at least, are going to start taking precautions. Hiring fire-resistant minions (giving the fighters a chance to make a difference). Constructing elaborate traps (that only the rogue can circumvent).

In short, be of good cheer and don't let the PCs get complacent. The players ought to enjoy the challenge of an enemy that the usual tactics don't work on... but that different tactics *do*. Expand your repertoire (including monster palette); use classed NPCs who use the PCs' tactics against them.

 

[maddman75]

Don't be afraid to throw new and different challenges at them. At this point, a D&D character can usually kick whoever's ass needs kicked. And it is important to let them do so from time to time. Otherwise what's the point of becoming a high level character.

With my first 3e campaign, when we got to this point I changed the rules of the game a bit. They were given lordships and placed in charge of the kingdom they had just saved. Now they had to decide whether or not to accept troops from a neighboring kingdom. He says its a gesture of friendship, but who knows if he has something up his sleeve. And after the (insert cataclysmic event the heros saved the kingdom from) the peasants can't get enough to eat. What are the heros going to do?

And read Piratecat's story hour. You can see all the rat-bastardliness in its full glory .

 

[ichabod]

One thing that worked great when my last campaign went high level was hit and run tactics. The PCs got on the wrong side of a three-eyed albino mindflayer they dubbed "Blinky." They would be dealing with some combat, and doing well with their high level sorceror, everyone hasted and improved invized. All of a sudden, Blinky would pop out of nowhere and smack them hard, hang around long enough to distract them from the encounter, and then disappear. This made the creatures harder to deal with, and gave them an enemy that challenged them.

Along the lines of situations where they can't let loose, keep in mind what local authorities think of their actions. My players were reckless enough with their power that there were eventually whole sections of Greyhawk they were banned from, which often got in the way of what they wanted to do. You have to be careful about irritating big governments, because they tend to have big guns.