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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zustiur" data-source="post: 5846497" data-attributes="member: 1544">Pretty much yes. It certainly bothers me more than Vancian magic. Afterall, with Vancian magic, we are talking about magic. It's not a real world thing, therefore the concept that a spell would be wiped from your memory the moment you cast it is just fine. That never bothered me in the slightest. The idea that I can only throw dirt in someone's eyes once per day... That bothers me.I'm already on record as not liking 4E. I'm not going to edition bash here, but let's see if I can actually identify some of the reasons I dislike it.* First and foremost I think exception based ruling doesn't sit well with me. I'm happier having rules to cover common stuff, and guidelines for adjudicating exceptional stuff. I don't need every little thing having it's own rule, and I explicitly hate the idea that I can't do something because there isn't a rule allowing it.* Powers for non spellcasters don't sit well with me. While I get the concept of 'this will only work in your favour occasionally', I'm happier with being able to try it multiple times, but having a lower success chance. * Exception based rules + powers... Now that really bothers me. Ranger: "I hastily nock two arrows instead of one and fire them together".DM: "You can't."Ranger: "Why not?"DM: "You don't have Twin Strike"* Targets: X, Y or Z. Oh god how I hate this line. I have one of those DMs. The ones who say the rope bridge doesn't get burnt because burning hands targets creatures. If you never had your group start arguing about those rules, you're a much luckier man than I am. This same DM has ruled on multiple occasions that you cannot use an attack power unless there is a creature to attack. e.g. I want to use an attack power that includes a teleport to simply teleport without attacking something. "Nope, can't be done. You need to target a creature"To borrow the phrase of the moment, "Explicit targeting rules need to die in a fire!"* Targets: Enemies. Why is it that virtually every player AOE power targets creatures, but monster powers target enemies? I'm not even certain that that's a true rule, but it's how we play. Drives me up the freaking wall.DM: "The hobgoblin sorcerer casts fireball on the paladin, hitting everyone in the party."Me: "And hitting 3 hobgoblin soldiers"DM: "Nope, hits enemies".W. T. F.I find that all of the above limit creativity. Yes, page 42 exists. But it's one page. Against hundreds of pages that basically say the opposite of page 42.Before I continue, Yes I realize this is a play group/DM specific issue. However, it's an issue that is encouraged by the way the rules are written. My DM is a 'rules as written' kind of guy.* Slimes can be knocked prone. Excuse me? I know this got errata'd, but it should have needed to be. For players like me, the rules should make sense in the real world first. Balance be damned.* Rules instead of narrative. In 4E, more than any other edition I've played, I feel like I'm playing a boardgame. The rules are so... prevalent, that I spend most of the game being aware of them, instead of letting them wash over me. I want 5E to have clear concise rules. But I want those rules not to jar me out of the story back into boardgame mentality.* Square circles. Squares instead of feet. Diagonals = 1. Nice and easy to use in game. Makes no damn sense in the real world. Again, boardgamey.Sorry, I got carried away with my bashing there. My point is that there are reasons that people (like me) feel that 4E stifles creativity. Rules that trump common sense. Rules that don't gel with reality. Rules that make the game feel gamey instead of being about storytelling. I think people who argue that magic users are two powerful are often in groups that don't apply consequences to spell use. Having fireballs not destroy the paper McGuffin makes fireballs much more powerful. How powerful is a fireball if you're too afraid to use it?I feel that DMs of earlier editions used to present the players with situations. The players then had to work out a solution to the situation. Recent editions seem to be focused to presenting the players with solutions from which to choose.I don't want to play 'choose your own adventure' where all the options are laid out in advance. I want to play DND, where I have to figure out what the options are for myself.Perhaps if page 42 was in the player's handbook instead of the DMG...A lot of this discussion has been about whether or not having lots of powers available stifles creativity.Theoretically, it doesn't. The option to be creative has not been removed. Page 42 even exists to facilitate it.The problem is that we're dealing with people here. The less options a player has, the more likely they are to look 'outside of the box' for options which are not on the character sheet. It's a psychological thing. I'm a victim of it as much as anyone else. If I don't have a power that knocks a target prone, I don't think of it as an option. There are no rules for tripping an opponent that aren't part of a power. Therefore I cannot do it. This is how it 'stifles' my creativity. Under 3E, everyone could trip, but it had AoO as a penalty, unless you spent a feat on it. Under 2E... I don't recall trip existing at all, but on the other hand, there also wasn't specific powers that enabled it for some characters and not for others. I can't speak for OE, 1E etc. I never got to play them.</blockquote>

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