Olde Tyme Feel with Multi-Classing

Just an idea to capture the feel of 1e wrt multi-classing. Namely, Humans excel as single classed characters, while Demi-Humans have an affinity for certain classes, yet tend to advance more slowly overall. (It's also intended to discourage the more rampant or non-traditional multi-classing.)

Characters receive a -20% experience penalty for every class beyond the first--regardless of the classes' relative levels.

Exception: A Demi-Human's Favored Class is not counted for these purposes.

Special: A Single-Classed Human receives a bonus of +20% to earned experience. This bonus is lost if the Human ever adds a second class (in addition to the -20% experience penalty he will now face).


Well, that's it really--I wanted to keep things simple.
 
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How do prestige classes fit into this?

It'll be great for single classed humans, they will fly through the levels. When everyone has 100,000 xp they will have 120,000. Everyone will be 14th level and they will be 16th.

Personally, I'm not a fan of this type of rule. I think the favored class system does this to a lesser degree. I like unuisually characters. Dwarved Fighter/Wizards are fun and I'd hate to discourage that.
 

Crothian said:
How do prestige classes fit into this?

I hadn't thought about them, when I was playing 3e I didn't allow them. IIRC, under the present system they don't count as a classes when multi-classing. If this is true, I would treat them the same under this system.

It'll be great for single classed humans, they will fly through the levels. When everyone has 100,000 xp they will have 120,000. Everyone will be 14th level and they will be 16th.

And the converse should pretty much be true when comparing a Human with two classes (alternating between the two) and a Demi-Human who has two classes, one of them favored.

This is the effect I was going for--remember, I'm trying to recreate the flavor of the class and race distribution in 1e, but with a little extra "oomph" for Humans of single-minded determination.

As things rest now, A Human Fighter-Mage and an Elven Fighter-Mage would advance at the same rate.

Personally, I'm not a fan of this type of rule. I think the favored class system does this to a lesser degree. I like unuisually characters. Dwarved Fighter/Wizards are fun and I'd hate to discourage that.

Fair enough :)

This proposal is for those who aren't quite as comfortable with those unusual combinations.

You can still have them under this proposal, it's just that it will cost--this also serves, in a mechanistic fashion, to explain why these more unusal combinations are not as common. People will tend to follow those pursuits that are most efficient in terms of return, while only the most unusual and dedicated will follow the more difficult route.

Anyway, if I ever play 3e again, I'll probably implement something like the above. (Besides, it also has the virtue of being simpler than the current system ;) )
 

Aside from personal opinion, there is nothing wrong with these rules. They will do what you want them to do, and they seem fairly balanced and I foresee no problems in the rules area.
 

Lägget!

Thorvald, have you considered what the reasoning for the easier access to multi-ing in 3ed is?

Namely to break down the archetypal feel a bit, ie if I have a cleric/fighter, I do not view myself as that, but rather as a Holy Champion bringing the word of my God to those who willing to listing and to destroy those who oppose my Gods intentions. Now could have played a Paladin, but that is not same, and the clc/war combo works for any Deity.
 

Unfortunately, this won't bring back the old-tyme feel of multi-classing. What it will do is make sure that all your adventuring parties are full of single classed (or multiclassed with prestige classes) human characters. Some players would try to buck the trend (by playing multiclassed demi-humans) at first but starting around 11th level the single classed characters will be 1 or more levels (often 2 levels) ahead of their multi-classed companions and it will only get worse from there. Even if players are satisfied with that, the challenges necessary for the single classed adventurers will kill off a lot of the multi-classed characters. The level loss from raise dead/resurrection will then further the imbalance until everyone realizes that multi-classed characters can't compete with their single classed human counterparts.

The reasons for this are two-fold:
1. Multi-classing isn't as powerful in 3e as it was in 2e
2. A 20% difference xp means much more in 3e than it did in 2e

1. In 2e, a multiclassed fighter/mage (what I usually played) would be about one level behind the single classed fighter in fighting ability and two levels behind the single classed mage in spellcasting ability. If an elf (an who wasn't), he could also wear armor (elven chain mail) and cast spells without penalty. In 3e, however the multiclassed fighter/wizard has to make a lot of choices. He can stay one or two levels behind the real wizard in spellcasting ability (by only taking one or two fighter levels), but then his fighting ability will only be marginally better than the single classed wizards' and he'll get cut to pieces on the front line. Alternately, he can keep the levels even and have the fighting ability of a cleric but weak spellcasting ability (he'll be getting Bull's Strength when the single class wizard gets fireball and won't get fireball until the single classed wizard has 10d6 fireballs and cone of Cold). The result of that is usually a weak character who's neither a good fighter nor a good wizard. As a final alternative, he can only take a couple levels of wizard (for shield, true strike, mirror image, etc) and the rest as fighter. In this case, he'll be a defensively oriented fighter who has to spend a few rounds at the beginning of every combat buffing himself. And all these cases suffer spell failure when casting in armor.

Other classes work bettter together (fighter/cleric, fighter/barbarian, fighter/rogue), etc. but none are clearly superior to a single classed character of equal level (fighter/barbarian, fighter/ranger, fighter/ranger/barbarian and ranger/rogue are the possible exceptions). While a fighter/barbarian is a great combination, I wouldn't want to take a fighter 4/Barbarian 5 up against a fighter 11 or barbarian 11.

On the whole, multiclassing in 3e isn't strong enough to support such an experience penalty.

2. This really goes hand in hand with #1. 2e used an exponential experience system that require millions of experience points to reach 20th level. 3e requires a scant 190k. Consequently in 2e, even a 50% xp penalty meant that you were only one level behind your companions and on a few adventures every level, you were actually the same level. In 3e, even a 20% experience difference is much more significant.

Of course if your players are powergamers, they'll just say "20% xp bonus, sign me up" and you'll have nothing but single classed humans from the get-go. (With the bonus feat and bonus skill points, humans are a very advantageous choice anyway in 3e and single classed characters are also quite powerful). The results will be quite different from 2e because IIRC, 2e parties had to be at least 50% elf with a minimum of one bladesinger (2 or more preferred :). In all seriousness though, I don't think this will do what you want it to.
 

AGGEMAM--

You're right, the situation has changed--the trouble is, I like the archetypes :)

Elder Basilisk--

That was well layed out and reasoned--thanks :)

I tried 3e for about a year, but went back to Basic D&D, so I'm starting to get a bit fuzzy concerning certain things. And, in truth, even when playing I didn't have any experience with higher level characters (high level for me being 10th lvl and up--I really prefer lower to mid-level campaigns).

Come to think of it, in 25 years of gaming, I've only had two or three characters achieve double digits :eek:

Anyway, would a +10% bonus for single-classed humans be more reasonable?
 

Multi's

My only gripe with the new multiclass rules is this:

Multi's such as Barb/Ftr/Rng, Wiz/Sor, and Pal/Rog for example, violate the "spirit" of the rules. I understand the 'advantage' of combining them. Ftr feat bonuses, Rng two-weapon fighting, etc., but to me, it feels like cheating in a way, and it's just about as easy to 'buy' Tracking if that's what you want, and/or Ambidexterity and Two-weapon fighting, and Rage away.

I like the archetypical types of 2e myself, substituting Druid for Cleric, Bard for Rogue, or Paladin, Ranger or Monk for a fighter multi (alignment conflicts notwithstanding).

I've been playing 20+ years, and I do like 3e a lot, but I really think DM's should take a hard look at what multiclasses they allow their players to put together. It should make sense RPwise, and not just be a way to circumvent the lack of certain abilities in their chosen class(es).

Yeah I know, I'm old, but ROLEPLAYING and realism is what it's all about, not just having every feat and skill in the book. Inherant weaknesses are what makes characters interesting to play. All-powerful ones become boring as the challenges become far fewer.
 

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