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<blockquote data-quote="Firwood" data-source="post: 8910609" data-attributes="member: 8345"><p>It's all a matter of perspective: having been born with D&D (red box) and then moved on to AD&D, this 'confusion' with descending AC, THAC0, bonuses and malus I don't see.</p><p>I understand that those who come from d20 where everything is more simplified find some difficulties, but... honestly, you want me to believe that it is complicated to UNDERSTAND how bonuses, malus, AC and THAC0 work after trying to play a couple of times?</p><p></p><p>Sure, it's less intuitive than purely ascending values like from 3e onwards, but it doesn't take a genius to play without problems.</p><p>Then you may or may not like the system, tastes are subjective, but to reduce it to 'it's too complicated' I find really ridiculous.</p><p></p><p>In your example, since you KNOW that the AC is descending, it is obvious that a bonus IMPROVES the armour class and thus results in a one-point reduction in it.</p><p>Same for the Dexterity bonus: when you know that it IMPROVES your AC, you must subtract the bonus from the AC value</p><p></p><p>Playing AD&D requires more attention when learning, because undoubtedly the rules are not as harmonised as in later editions, but we are far from the 'insurmountable' difficulties cited by some.</p><p>And if an Italian like me, in 1989 at the age of 17, understood them in English, could it be so complicated?</p><p></p><p>In the end, it is just the way you approach the system: if, like me, you played it from the beginning when the alternatives were other ttrpg with completely different systems and mechanics, you would not struggle to learn how the various rules work.</p><p>If, on the other hand, you are younger (lucky you!) and come from d20 as a first experience, you find everything less coherent. But less coherent does not necessarily mean more complicated.</p><p>I am convinced that, with a little patience and a couple of sessions played, everything becomes very fluid and, in my opinion, much more satisfying than systems from 3e onwards.</p><p>With AD&D you don't have to min-max, you don't have to scroll through hundreds of talents, go looking for prestige classes, backgrounds, origins or who knows what else.</p><p>You choose the type of character you want to make and off you go. Creation is fast, each class is distinct from the others, what your character can do cannot be done by another, not even slightly (unless it is the same class of course).</p><p>You can't jump into the fray headfirst when you're level 1-3, because otherwise you're dead.</p><p>You don't need miniatures for combat, which is much faster and more hectic. Everything is played in the mind and the pace of the session benefits.</p><p>The strength of AD&D (second edition) is the large number of adventures, settings and supplements published, which allow you to expand, 'complicate' and define your characters in more detail, if you want.</p><p></p><p>I apologise for the length of this post, but I am sorry when I read by some that AD&D is to be discarded because it is complicated, when all it takes is a minimum of application to fully enjoy this which, for me, is the most rewarding system to play, both as a master and as a player.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Firwood, post: 8910609, member: 8345"] It's all a matter of perspective: having been born with D&D (red box) and then moved on to AD&D, this 'confusion' with descending AC, THAC0, bonuses and malus I don't see. I understand that those who come from d20 where everything is more simplified find some difficulties, but... honestly, you want me to believe that it is complicated to UNDERSTAND how bonuses, malus, AC and THAC0 work after trying to play a couple of times? Sure, it's less intuitive than purely ascending values like from 3e onwards, but it doesn't take a genius to play without problems. Then you may or may not like the system, tastes are subjective, but to reduce it to 'it's too complicated' I find really ridiculous. In your example, since you KNOW that the AC is descending, it is obvious that a bonus IMPROVES the armour class and thus results in a one-point reduction in it. Same for the Dexterity bonus: when you know that it IMPROVES your AC, you must subtract the bonus from the AC value Playing AD&D requires more attention when learning, because undoubtedly the rules are not as harmonised as in later editions, but we are far from the 'insurmountable' difficulties cited by some. And if an Italian like me, in 1989 at the age of 17, understood them in English, could it be so complicated? In the end, it is just the way you approach the system: if, like me, you played it from the beginning when the alternatives were other ttrpg with completely different systems and mechanics, you would not struggle to learn how the various rules work. If, on the other hand, you are younger (lucky you!) and come from d20 as a first experience, you find everything less coherent. But less coherent does not necessarily mean more complicated. I am convinced that, with a little patience and a couple of sessions played, everything becomes very fluid and, in my opinion, much more satisfying than systems from 3e onwards. With AD&D you don't have to min-max, you don't have to scroll through hundreds of talents, go looking for prestige classes, backgrounds, origins or who knows what else. You choose the type of character you want to make and off you go. Creation is fast, each class is distinct from the others, what your character can do cannot be done by another, not even slightly (unless it is the same class of course). You can't jump into the fray headfirst when you're level 1-3, because otherwise you're dead. You don't need miniatures for combat, which is much faster and more hectic. Everything is played in the mind and the pace of the session benefits. The strength of AD&D (second edition) is the large number of adventures, settings and supplements published, which allow you to expand, 'complicate' and define your characters in more detail, if you want. I apologise for the length of this post, but I am sorry when I read by some that AD&D is to be discarded because it is complicated, when all it takes is a minimum of application to fully enjoy this which, for me, is the most rewarding system to play, both as a master and as a player. [/QUOTE]
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