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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
On gatekeeping and the 'live-streaming edition wars'
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<blockquote data-quote="OblivionDrive" data-source="post: 7897256" data-attributes="member: 7020101"><p>This idea is predicated on the assumption that CR viewers are viewers only and don't play. It's a blatantly wrong assumption. Like, orders of magnitude levels of wrong.</p><p></p><p>Even if, say, totally hypothetically, that 30% of CR viewers don't play at all and have no intention to whatsoever, are you saying the 70% who do play and would be interested in a Wildemount sourcebook aren't valid enough in your eyes to warrant having their needs met too?</p><p></p><p>Here's the situation: CR viewership cuts across demographics. Yes, it's predominately younger skewing, but it also includes more than a handful of old school folks too (the forums have shown that I'm not the only one and this is just a sliver of a sliver of the hobby).</p><p></p><p>That includes people who game regularly, people who wish they could but lack a group (for a myriad of reasons) and people who are just fans of the show with zero intention to ever play that would still like to own a cool sourcebook just like they bought the art books and t-shirts and minatures sets and pledged MILLIONS to the Kickstarter for the animated series. And then you have the people who don't really know about CR or who do but haven't watched it who might see the book on the FLGS shelf and go "Huh... a new setting, eh? Lemme check this out..." and end up falling in love with the worldbuilding without having ever watched an episode...</p><p></p><p>Why is the money and the patronage of all of those people worth less in your eyes than whomever you deem to be "acceptable" fans of D&D? This is what I don't get about your posts. Why are they "lesser" in your eyes?</p><p></p><p>Don't get me wrong - I would kill to see Dark Sun, Planescape and Spelljammer redone for 5e. Those were my favorite 2e settings and while I know I don't NEED them updated to run them, it does ease things along when you have updated and rules-compliant versions. I honestly don't care about Greyhawk, Dragonlance (though I read the original novel triad), Mystara, Birthright or a number of other settings and while not seeing them redone doesn't affect me, I know there are others who feel about them the way I do about DS/PS/SJ and I know it sucks for them to feel "passed over" just like it does for me with my favs.</p><p></p><p>But none of this - NONE OF THIS - makes it acceptable or fair or in any way welcoming to incoming fans when you disparage whole swaths of old guard, newcomers and just adjacent fans alike by acting like your money and opinion is magically worth more than that of groups you've decided to broad-brush with weird strawman assumptions.</p><p></p><p>People do that crap because "other"ing them makes it easier to accept that changes you don't like must be due to some nefarious, nebulous conspiracy or just WotC being apparently boneheadedly stupid enough to court a "non-audience" (like they have been anything less than cautious with their marketing strategy for the first few years of 5e's life cycle) over the fact that there's a HUGE untapped market for this. We spent the last five years dealing with the fallout of exactly this kind of toxic gatekeeping fandom in both video games and comic books and for the most part it's managed to MOSTLY slide off of the back of TTRPGs when they've tried before now. What bothers me is that this time it feels like the duck's back isn't as waterproof as it used to be...</p><p></p><p>Obviously you have strong feelings about a hobby that one would hopefully be safe in assuming you're passionate about. Otherwise it would just make one a remarkably dedicated/bored troll to carry on banging the drum this long and I would prefer to assume the answer is both the simpler and less nefarious/sad one. But how is leveraging CR's ginormous fanbase ruining the game for you? They're not rewriting the core rulebooks to make everything CR the assumed default setting. Nothing about the core game is changing. So why all this bitterness? For large chunks of the early 90s, I didn't have groups to play with, but I still bought sourcebooks every month, read them, collected them, dreamed about playing... did that make my dollars spent less valid because most of those books didn't get to see actual table time?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="OblivionDrive, post: 7897256, member: 7020101"] This idea is predicated on the assumption that CR viewers are viewers only and don't play. It's a blatantly wrong assumption. Like, orders of magnitude levels of wrong. Even if, say, totally hypothetically, that 30% of CR viewers don't play at all and have no intention to whatsoever, are you saying the 70% who do play and would be interested in a Wildemount sourcebook aren't valid enough in your eyes to warrant having their needs met too? Here's the situation: CR viewership cuts across demographics. Yes, it's predominately younger skewing, but it also includes more than a handful of old school folks too (the forums have shown that I'm not the only one and this is just a sliver of a sliver of the hobby). That includes people who game regularly, people who wish they could but lack a group (for a myriad of reasons) and people who are just fans of the show with zero intention to ever play that would still like to own a cool sourcebook just like they bought the art books and t-shirts and minatures sets and pledged MILLIONS to the Kickstarter for the animated series. And then you have the people who don't really know about CR or who do but haven't watched it who might see the book on the FLGS shelf and go "Huh... a new setting, eh? Lemme check this out..." and end up falling in love with the worldbuilding without having ever watched an episode... Why is the money and the patronage of all of those people worth less in your eyes than whomever you deem to be "acceptable" fans of D&D? This is what I don't get about your posts. Why are they "lesser" in your eyes? Don't get me wrong - I would kill to see Dark Sun, Planescape and Spelljammer redone for 5e. Those were my favorite 2e settings and while I know I don't NEED them updated to run them, it does ease things along when you have updated and rules-compliant versions. I honestly don't care about Greyhawk, Dragonlance (though I read the original novel triad), Mystara, Birthright or a number of other settings and while not seeing them redone doesn't affect me, I know there are others who feel about them the way I do about DS/PS/SJ and I know it sucks for them to feel "passed over" just like it does for me with my favs. But none of this - NONE OF THIS - makes it acceptable or fair or in any way welcoming to incoming fans when you disparage whole swaths of old guard, newcomers and just adjacent fans alike by acting like your money and opinion is magically worth more than that of groups you've decided to broad-brush with weird strawman assumptions. People do that crap because "other"ing them makes it easier to accept that changes you don't like must be due to some nefarious, nebulous conspiracy or just WotC being apparently boneheadedly stupid enough to court a "non-audience" (like they have been anything less than cautious with their marketing strategy for the first few years of 5e's life cycle) over the fact that there's a HUGE untapped market for this. We spent the last five years dealing with the fallout of exactly this kind of toxic gatekeeping fandom in both video games and comic books and for the most part it's managed to MOSTLY slide off of the back of TTRPGs when they've tried before now. What bothers me is that this time it feels like the duck's back isn't as waterproof as it used to be... Obviously you have strong feelings about a hobby that one would hopefully be safe in assuming you're passionate about. Otherwise it would just make one a remarkably dedicated/bored troll to carry on banging the drum this long and I would prefer to assume the answer is both the simpler and less nefarious/sad one. But how is leveraging CR's ginormous fanbase ruining the game for you? They're not rewriting the core rulebooks to make everything CR the assumed default setting. Nothing about the core game is changing. So why all this bitterness? For large chunks of the early 90s, I didn't have groups to play with, but I still bought sourcebooks every month, read them, collected them, dreamed about playing... did that make my dollars spent less valid because most of those books didn't get to see actual table time? [/QUOTE]
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