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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8247645" data-attributes="member: 18">I'm not going to have an edition war, though you seem to want to have one, and frankly need to chill a bit, but this is a common misunderstanding of 4E, in that, that wasn't all you could do. This isn't up for debate. If necessary, I can quote page numbers. Do I need to quote page numbers? 4E explicitly allowed players to take actions which were not the codified abilities their characters possessed. It did this to such an extent, that it even had an optional table to help DMs to assess how much damage (ST or AOE) and what other effects such stuff might have in combat.Now, let's both be real - some people totally ignored that. I've read actual plays where nobody did anything except use their abilities in a totally wargame-y way. I've seen the same for other editions, of course, including 5E. Was it more prevalent in 4E? Maybe. It was certainly more obvious when it happened. But it didn't have to be that way. Ironically, outside of the codified abilities, it was actually closer to the &quot;mother may I&quot; of 2E than 3E was - because if you wanted to do X stunt, it was pretty much up to the DM how hard it was - the rules were a lot less fixed on it in 3E. So it disempowered the players in a sense we've been discussing, but made the system more flexible than 3E RAW allowed for.But you're arguing that people couldn't do other stuff, and as such it was bad for certain kinds of fantasy. That's factually wrong. It's not just &quot;an opinion&quot;. It's factually wrong. Again do I need to quote page numbers? Because honestly I am going to be pretty annoyed if I do and I don't get an actual apology from you for making me do it (because my 4E stuff is packed away and hard to reach). Or are you going to accept this fact (which I suspect, if you actually played 4E, you know).(Also really annoyed with WotC for not releasing the 4E stuff on PDF back when I would have paid for it, because otherwise this would be easy to show.)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 8247645, member: 18"] I'm not going to have an edition war, though you seem to want to have one, and frankly need to chill a bit, but this is a common misunderstanding of 4E, in that, that wasn't all you could do. This isn't up for debate. If necessary, I can quote page numbers. Do I need to quote page numbers? 4E explicitly allowed players to take actions which were not the codified abilities their characters possessed. It did this to such an extent, that it even had an optional table to help DMs to assess how much damage (ST or AOE) and what other effects such stuff might have in combat. Now, let's both be real - [I]some people totally ignored that[/I]. I've read actual plays where nobody did anything except use their abilities in a totally wargame-y way. I've seen the same for other editions, of course, including 5E. Was it more prevalent in 4E? Maybe. It was certainly more obvious when it happened. But it didn't have to be that way. Ironically, outside of the codified abilities, it was actually closer to the "mother may I" of 2E than 3E was - because if you wanted to do X stunt, it was pretty much up to the DM how hard it was - the rules were a lot less fixed on it in 3E. So it disempowered the players in a sense we've been discussing, but made the system more flexible than 3E RAW allowed for. But you're arguing that people couldn't do other stuff, and as such it was bad for certain kinds of fantasy. That's factually wrong. It's not just "an opinion". It's factually wrong. Again do I need to quote page numbers? Because honestly I am going to be pretty annoyed if I do and I don't get an actual apology from you for making me do it (because my 4E stuff is packed away and hard to reach). Or are you going to accept this fact (which I suspect, if you actually played 4E, you know). (Also really annoyed with WotC for not releasing the 4E stuff on PDF back when I would have paid for it, because otherwise this would be easy to show.) [/QUOTE]

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