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On GWF and a versatile fighting style
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<blockquote data-quote="Laurefindel" data-source="post: 7623098" data-attributes="member: 67296"><p>Ok, I'm thinking out loud here and would appreciate your input.</p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>About a versatile fighting style...</strong></p><p>Versatile is a cool concept that evokes many heroic fiction characters like Aragorn, Mad Martigan, Conan, Wulfgar, or Thor to name a few, as well as archetypes such as the katana wielding samurai or the battleaxe swinging dwarf. Unfortunately, from an optimizing point of view*, you’re better off pretending that Narsil/Anduril is a two-handed sword and that Mjolnir is a maul. While this works, I wish there would be more support specifically for versatile weapons.</p><p></p><p> Versatile weapons are just that: versatile. Therefore, let’s play on the theme of flexibility:</p><p></p><p> <strong>Versatile Weapon Fighting</strong></p><p> When you are wielding a versatile weapon with two hands, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls. In addition, at the beginning of your turn, you gain a +1 bonus to AC or a +1 bonus to attack rolls (your choice) until your next turn.</p><p> </p><p> The +1 to damage only brings the average of a d10 versatile weapon on par with a d8 weapon with dueling fighting style (1d10+1 = 1d8+2). At 6.5, the average is still equal or under that of a great axe/sword.</p><p></p><p> The +1 to AC somewhat compensate for the loss of a shield. It's still inferior to dueling + shield, so the compensating power is an optional +1 to hit should you choose to lower your AC. A flexible style for a flexible weapon; sounds fitting.</p><p></p><p> The defense fighting style does not lose its niche since defense alone allows that +1 bonus to AC to stack with shields, with this new fighting style, with heavy and two-handed weapons, with range weapons, and with the dual wielder feat.</p><p></p><p> Alternatively, instead of borrowing from multiple styles, we could look for a mechanical effect not yet represented by existing fighting styles. Archery increases accuracy on attack rolls (archery), dueling increases total damage, great weapon fighting increases the reliability of damage rolls (without increasing damage maximum), two-weapon fighting enhances an option for your bonus action, protection give an option for your reaction, and defense increases your AC. That pretty much only leaves reliability on attack rolls (without increasing total) as the only unused avenue.</p><p></p><p> <strong>(alternate) Versatile Weapon Fighting</strong></p><p> When you are wielding a versatile weapon with two hands and roll a 1 on the d20 for an attack roll, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll.</p><p></p><p> <strong>About GWM and Sharpshooter</strong></p><p>The TWF thread had me thinking how this combat style is often seen inferior because, among other things, it monopolizes your bonus action. Now in itself that is not a bad thing – there wouldn’t be any tactical choices if you could do everything all the time – but it does have to compete, some would say unfairly, with other combat styles that do not require that bonus action.</p><p></p><p> So building on the (debatable) parental principle that “when you can’t make them equally happy, make them equally unhappy”, let’s see if what would happen if Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter feats also required a bonus action to be activated:</p><p> </p><p> <strong>Great Weapon Master</strong></p><p> <strong>* Once on each of</strong> your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one <strong>additional</strong> melee weapon attack <s>as a bonus action</s>.</p><p> </p><p>* Before you make a melee attack <strong>on your turn</strong> with a heavy weapon with which you are proficient, you can <strong>use a bonus action</strong> to choose take a -5 penalty to <strong>any of your attack rolls until your next turn</strong>. <strong>Anytime</strong> you do so and the attack hits, it deals +10 damage.</p><p> </p><p> <strong>Sharpshooter</strong></p><p> * Attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged weapon attack rolls.</p><p> </p><p>*Your ranged weapons ignore half cover and three-quarters cover.</p><p> </p><p>*Before you make a ranged attack <strong>on your turn</strong> with a ranged weapon with which you are proficient, you can <strong>use a bonus action</strong> to take a -5 penalty to <strong>any of your attack rolls until you next turn</strong>. <strong>Anytime</strong> you do so and the attack hits, it deals +10 damage.</p><p></p><p> This makes the power attack part of GWM incompatible with the bonus attack granted by Polearm Master, which cuts a bit on the cheese that devalues TWF so much. On the other hand, it enables the cleave part of GWF to work with the butt-end attack of Polearm Master (and TWF for what it’s worth).</p><p></p><p>This works pretty well... until the berserker barbarian shows up.</p><p></p><p>*I know not everything is about optimization. Still, it is satisfying to know that your character is not handicapped by a mostly cosmetic choice, especially one that is rather iconic in fantasy.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Laurefindel, post: 7623098, member: 67296"] Ok, I'm thinking out loud here and would appreciate your input. [B] About a versatile fighting style...[/B] Versatile is a cool concept that evokes many heroic fiction characters like Aragorn, Mad Martigan, Conan, Wulfgar, or Thor to name a few, as well as archetypes such as the katana wielding samurai or the battleaxe swinging dwarf. Unfortunately, from an optimizing point of view*, you’re better off pretending that Narsil/Anduril is a two-handed sword and that Mjolnir is a maul. While this works, I wish there would be more support specifically for versatile weapons. Versatile weapons are just that: versatile. Therefore, let’s play on the theme of flexibility: [B]Versatile Weapon Fighting[/B] When you are wielding a versatile weapon with two hands, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls. In addition, at the beginning of your turn, you gain a +1 bonus to AC or a +1 bonus to attack rolls (your choice) until your next turn. The +1 to damage only brings the average of a d10 versatile weapon on par with a d8 weapon with dueling fighting style (1d10+1 = 1d8+2). At 6.5, the average is still equal or under that of a great axe/sword. The +1 to AC somewhat compensate for the loss of a shield. It's still inferior to dueling + shield, so the compensating power is an optional +1 to hit should you choose to lower your AC. A flexible style for a flexible weapon; sounds fitting. The defense fighting style does not lose its niche since defense alone allows that +1 bonus to AC to stack with shields, with this new fighting style, with heavy and two-handed weapons, with range weapons, and with the dual wielder feat. Alternatively, instead of borrowing from multiple styles, we could look for a mechanical effect not yet represented by existing fighting styles. Archery increases accuracy on attack rolls (archery), dueling increases total damage, great weapon fighting increases the reliability of damage rolls (without increasing damage maximum), two-weapon fighting enhances an option for your bonus action, protection give an option for your reaction, and defense increases your AC. That pretty much only leaves reliability on attack rolls (without increasing total) as the only unused avenue. [B](alternate) Versatile Weapon Fighting[/B] When you are wielding a versatile weapon with two hands and roll a 1 on the d20 for an attack roll, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll. [B]About GWM and Sharpshooter[/B] The TWF thread had me thinking how this combat style is often seen inferior because, among other things, it monopolizes your bonus action. Now in itself that is not a bad thing – there wouldn’t be any tactical choices if you could do everything all the time – but it does have to compete, some would say unfairly, with other combat styles that do not require that bonus action. So building on the (debatable) parental principle that “when you can’t make them equally happy, make them equally unhappy”, let’s see if what would happen if Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter feats also required a bonus action to be activated: [B]Great Weapon Master[/B] [B]* Once on each of[/B] your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one [B]additional[/B] melee weapon attack [s]as a bonus action[/s]. * Before you make a melee attack [B]on your turn[/B] with a heavy weapon with which you are proficient, you can [B]use a bonus action[/B] to choose take a -5 penalty to [B]any of your attack rolls until your next turn[/B]. [B]Anytime[/B] you do so and the attack hits, it deals +10 damage. [B]Sharpshooter[/B] * Attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged weapon attack rolls. *Your ranged weapons ignore half cover and three-quarters cover. *Before you make a ranged attack [B]on your turn[/B] with a ranged weapon with which you are proficient, you can [B]use a bonus action[/B] to take a -5 penalty to [B]any of your attack rolls until you next turn[/B]. [B]Anytime[/B] you do so and the attack hits, it deals +10 damage. This makes the power attack part of GWM incompatible with the bonus attack granted by Polearm Master, which cuts a bit on the cheese that devalues TWF so much. On the other hand, it enables the cleave part of GWF to work with the butt-end attack of Polearm Master (and TWF for what it’s worth). This works pretty well... until the berserker barbarian shows up. *I know not everything is about optimization. Still, it is satisfying to know that your character is not handicapped by a mostly cosmetic choice, especially one that is rather iconic in fantasy. [/QUOTE]
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