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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8358691" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>No, they are not, at least not for all of those. If you ignore armor proficiencies, there is a strong feedback for doing so -- you are hit more often or you have disadvantage on lots of things. If you ignore a tool proficiency, when you take an action that can use that tool, you are hit with a strong feedback -- you do not get to add proficiency bonuses to your roll.</p><p></p><p>Most of these things have feedbacks, in fact, whereas ignoring your BIFTs has no negative feedback at all. This is a terribly muddled list that doesn't consider how these things are actually incentivized directly or penalized directly in the game. Sure, you can ignore them, but then there is a feedback for doing to, almost always negative.</p><p></p><p>I'm playing in a Blades in the Dark game right now, which features strong characterizations effects. So far, my rival has caused massive problems for my crew (the other players), and I've said bupkiss about it despite knowing exactly what's going on. This is because it's related to my backstory, which I do not share, because it involve my character having betrayed a former team for personal gain -- something I might do again but even if I don't, the implication is there.</p><p></p><p>Another example, my character has the reckless example. My character has done some incredibly stupid, very not good for anyone, things in the name of being reckless. This has blown up at least one, and seriously complicated many, things we've done. Hell, at one point, the crew had a threat pretty much locked down and I screwed it up entirely with a reckless move (had it paid off, it would have been glorious, but the odds were extrememly against that). This cause harm (injury) to two crewmates, almost ruined the score, and has had lasting effects as we didn't deal with the threat and had to spend lots of our downtime resources countering it - plus it showed up twice in other scores to cause further complication. </p><p></p><p>But, since Blades isn't a game where the team concept is placed first, but rather the characters, and it fully allows very different agendas from the characters (but not as much as Apocalypse World, due to the Crew mechanics), this isn't a problem at the table, even as it's a major problem for the characters and crew.</p><p></p><p>However, you're right, this would be extremely odd in a D&D game, because the first thing is the party and you're expected to bend character to this.</p><p></p><p>Where does it say your ideal is, in any way, a stronger force for your character than their flaw, or bond? And, no, there's no way to exploit or cause them to act against their best interests -- at all.</p><p></p><p>I have an ideal and a flaw that are at odds, this is absolutely an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. I might have a Bond of "family first" and a flaw of "drunkard" and spend far more time drunk, not being there for my family, but when I'm sober I am. I mean, that's like super tropey right there. There's nothing that requires BIFTs to be in harmony. Even your example is one where the character is choosing to enact violence when they could show respect and discuss and educate rather than bash. And, how much force is necessary to straighten someone out? What if the first beating doesn't take?</p><p></p><p><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite11" alt=":rolleyes:" title="Roll eyes :rolleyes:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":rolleyes:" /> Yes, no one else's game has magical moments.</p><p></p><p>There are quite a lot of people that have never even heard of those games that find BIFTs useless or harmful. There's threads here about it, and it's a common comment. The awareness of other games that actually showcase how this stuff can work very well just goes towards understanding exactly how BIFTs fail to do what they do. Frankly, given the nature of 5e as a GM-centered game, the attempt was ill-conceived to begin with -- it just adds to GM overhead and is one more thing that you have to hope the GM does for you.</p><p></p><p>Here I'm with you -- I'm not sure at all what [USER=93670]@tetrasodium[/USER] is saying, here. TS -- maybe start a thread on this idea?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8358691, member: 16814"] No, they are not, at least not for all of those. If you ignore armor proficiencies, there is a strong feedback for doing so -- you are hit more often or you have disadvantage on lots of things. If you ignore a tool proficiency, when you take an action that can use that tool, you are hit with a strong feedback -- you do not get to add proficiency bonuses to your roll. Most of these things have feedbacks, in fact, whereas ignoring your BIFTs has no negative feedback at all. This is a terribly muddled list that doesn't consider how these things are actually incentivized directly or penalized directly in the game. Sure, you can ignore them, but then there is a feedback for doing to, almost always negative. I'm playing in a Blades in the Dark game right now, which features strong characterizations effects. So far, my rival has caused massive problems for my crew (the other players), and I've said bupkiss about it despite knowing exactly what's going on. This is because it's related to my backstory, which I do not share, because it involve my character having betrayed a former team for personal gain -- something I might do again but even if I don't, the implication is there. Another example, my character has the reckless example. My character has done some incredibly stupid, very not good for anyone, things in the name of being reckless. This has blown up at least one, and seriously complicated many, things we've done. Hell, at one point, the crew had a threat pretty much locked down and I screwed it up entirely with a reckless move (had it paid off, it would have been glorious, but the odds were extrememly against that). This cause harm (injury) to two crewmates, almost ruined the score, and has had lasting effects as we didn't deal with the threat and had to spend lots of our downtime resources countering it - plus it showed up twice in other scores to cause further complication. But, since Blades isn't a game where the team concept is placed first, but rather the characters, and it fully allows very different agendas from the characters (but not as much as Apocalypse World, due to the Crew mechanics), this isn't a problem at the table, even as it's a major problem for the characters and crew. However, you're right, this would be extremely odd in a D&D game, because the first thing is the party and you're expected to bend character to this. Where does it say your ideal is, in any way, a stronger force for your character than their flaw, or bond? And, no, there's no way to exploit or cause them to act against their best interests -- at all. I have an ideal and a flaw that are at odds, this is absolutely an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. I might have a Bond of "family first" and a flaw of "drunkard" and spend far more time drunk, not being there for my family, but when I'm sober I am. I mean, that's like super tropey right there. There's nothing that requires BIFTs to be in harmony. Even your example is one where the character is choosing to enact violence when they could show respect and discuss and educate rather than bash. And, how much force is necessary to straighten someone out? What if the first beating doesn't take? :rolleyes: Yes, no one else's game has magical moments. There are quite a lot of people that have never even heard of those games that find BIFTs useless or harmful. There's threads here about it, and it's a common comment. The awareness of other games that actually showcase how this stuff can work very well just goes towards understanding exactly how BIFTs fail to do what they do. Frankly, given the nature of 5e as a GM-centered game, the attempt was ill-conceived to begin with -- it just adds to GM overhead and is one more thing that you have to hope the GM does for you. Here I'm with you -- I'm not sure at all what [USER=93670]@tetrasodium[/USER] is saying, here. TS -- maybe start a thread on this idea? [/QUOTE]
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