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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 8673070" data-attributes="member: 22779">But, that's not really a simulation though.&nbsp; That's just the people agreeing that X is okay.&nbsp; Since X can be anything, so long as it's acceptable to the table, then it's not really modeling anything because if you ran the same simulation fifteen times, you'd get 15, sometimes contradictory, answers.If something is a simulation, then running that simulation from similar initial inputs should generate similar results.&nbsp; &quot;Translating the technical aspects of the game into a credible fiction&quot; isn't simulation, in the OP's sense of the word, at all.The true problem is, people are still trying to bang that drum that &quot;make stuff up&quot; is a simulation.&nbsp; In a real simulation, the players and the DM shouldn't actually matter all that much. The simulation would actually tell you what happened.So, no, in the OP's definition, there are very few actual simulation based RPG's out there.&nbsp; A few.&nbsp; Things like HARN or GURPS, and a handful of far more rigorous systems, but, D&amp;D?&nbsp; Not even close.AFAIK, the only reason to continuously try to bang the drum of &quot;D&amp;D as simulation&quot; is to gatekeep the game away from those pesky folks that don't play the same way.&nbsp; Then, you simply define &quot;simulation&quot; as &quot;anything I do at my table, that I like to do&quot; and anything that's not what you like to do is not simulation.&nbsp; Has zero to do with actual game design and everything to do with people trying to shout down any sort of changes to the game that a certain segment of the fandom doesn't like.&nbsp; It's the same arguments that have been floated around since 2007.&nbsp; We MUST KEEP D&amp;D PURE!!!&nbsp; We must never acknowledge that D&amp;D is not in any real way a simulation (as per the dictionary, non-jargon meaning of the word) because if we acknowledge that in any form, that means that we open the door for all those hated mechanics that the pure of gamer must shun!We MUST NOT EVER lower our guard!!!&nbsp; We must DEFEND THE HONOR OF D&amp;D!!&nbsp; It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetically obvious.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 8673070, member: 22779"] But, that's not really a simulation though. That's just the people agreeing that X is okay. Since X can be anything, so long as it's acceptable to the table, then it's not really modeling anything because if you ran the same simulation fifteen times, you'd get 15, sometimes contradictory, answers. If something is a simulation, then running that simulation from similar initial inputs should generate similar results. "Translating the technical aspects of the game into a credible fiction" isn't simulation, in the OP's sense of the word, at all. The true problem is, people are still trying to bang that drum that "make stuff up" is a simulation. In a real simulation, the players and the DM shouldn't actually matter all that much. The simulation would actually tell you what happened. So, no, in the OP's definition, there are very few actual simulation based RPG's out there. A few. Things like HARN or GURPS, and a handful of far more rigorous systems, but, D&D? Not even close. AFAIK, the only reason to continuously try to bang the drum of "D&D as simulation" is to gatekeep the game away from those pesky folks that don't play the same way. Then, you simply define "simulation" as "anything I do at my table, that I like to do" and anything that's not what you like to do is not simulation. Has zero to do with actual game design and everything to do with people trying to shout down any sort of changes to the game that a certain segment of the fandom doesn't like. It's the same arguments that have been floated around since 2007. We MUST KEEP D&D PURE!!! We must never acknowledge that D&D is not in any real way a simulation (as per the dictionary, non-jargon meaning of the word) because if we acknowledge that in any form, that means that we open the door for all those hated mechanics that the pure of gamer must shun! We MUST NOT EVER lower our guard!!! We must DEFEND THE HONOR OF D&D!! It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetically obvious. [/QUOTE]

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