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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8673128" data-attributes="member: 42582">The resolution of an AD&D Archmage blasting a Type VI Demon uses damage dice for the lightning bolt, hit dice for the demons resilience, a saving throw roll, and a magic resistance roll. How does that count as presented in a way that sort of looks like how things actually work?I could almost see this for Rolemaster: roll on the attack table, followed by the crit table(s), to learn how much the demon was blasted and/or injured by the lightning bolt. (Though even here it's not quite clear what the roll on the attack table is actually representing in the fiction.)But not for AD&D. And how would you operationalise these as game rules? How strong does a D&D character have to be to flip a 2,000 lb object?AD&D says that an 18/00 strength character can carry about 450 lb; the same character also has a 40% chance to Bend Bars. In 5e an Ogre has 19 STR and is Large and so can lift 2 x 30 x 19 = 1140 lb; it's +4 STR bonus means that it has a 40% chance to hit a DC 17 check. Is it DC 17 to bend bars in 5e D&D? Are these good simulations?In the context of a RPG, what sorts of rules will make a STR stat and some associated parameters (various bonuses and % chances of success; encumbrance limits; rules for how badly people get hurt when punched; etc) into a plausible simulation? Is it a good simulation if an Ogre throwing a sling stone at you is more dangerous (because of the STR mod to damage) than an ordinary person stabbing you with a dagger?This goes back to [USER=99817]@chaochou[/USER]'s point that wargaming can require significant rules changes to satisfy the demands of simulation even if there are only modest changes in the scenario parameters (eg add a time-travelling machine gunner to your Napoleonic scenario).It seems to me that the changes to carrying rules, bend bars rules, how to hit and damage are handled (+3, +6 for the 18/00 AD&D Ogre; +4, +4 for the 5e 19 STR Ogre) have had no appreciable affect on the extent to which STR in D&D works as a simulation. That suggests to me that the point of those rules is not to simulate anything very much, but to serve other game play purposes.What do you mean by simulation here? What is it that you want as much of as you can get? If you mean resolution processes that tell you what is happening in the fiction from moment-to-moment, then why not play RuneQuest? If that's not what you mean, then what is it that you can get more or less of?I think it is extremely hard to have RPG rules, especially FRPG rules, that will simulate in the sense of provide an accurate representational model of some process or series of events.I've discussed STR just above. Upthread, you mentioned "action movie physics". How would you integrate these into your simulation? For instance, action movie protagonists make great leaps and survive tremendous falls with an unrealistic degree of reliability; they rarely if ever slip from ledges, window sills, etc; but they also sometimes get hurt by ordinary blows or hindered by mundane obstacles. It's obvious that in a movie this is all done with pacing and excitement in mind. Can a RPG do this and still count as a simulation? What techniques would be used?So let me flip it around - what do you count as simulation in such a game? Will it distinguish (say) AD&D from (say) 4e D&D, or Marvel Heroic RP - two games that surely everyone agrees do not aim at simulation?I can tell you what I can see, and it might also be what [USER=467]@Reynard[/USER] intended by referring to results being determined without having regard to "the best narrative" or "the most fun play": producing results without the need for anyone to make a decision between (i) a character's action being declared and (ii) the outcome of the action being known, unless (iii) that decision is to declare another character's action which occurs in the fiction in response to what that character is experiencing in the fiction.But (1) that's a jargonistic notion of simlation.And (2) I think it captures a lot of 4e D&D play. I don't think it will capture much MHRP play.And (3) it means that the Shield spell and most other reactions in 5e count as non-simulationist (because they involve rewinding ingame time, because the game doesn't distinguish between starting to cast a spell (or move a distance, or whatever) and finishing it, because the game uses a fairly simple "stop-motion" action economy). And that would be a slightly weird outcome, given that the 4e and 5e Shield spell is the closest to emulating how Dr Strange-type magicians actually use their magical shields.</blockquote>

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