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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8673562" data-attributes="member: 16814">No one's made this argument in this thread.&nbsp; Except you, seemingly in an attempt to discredit the arguments actually being made.&nbsp; Hence why I noted it as an interesting tack.&nbsp; I have no issues with sim.&nbsp; I happen to think games like Stonetop, a PbtA Dungeon World hack, do a more consistent job of it than D&amp;D does because D&amp;D has those hard and strange toggles.&nbsp; Pointing out those toggles in how D&amp;D does the sim stuff and what it means isn't an argument for gamism -- it's just pointing out how it works and what has to be reconciled.You seem to be acknowledging my stance -- there's hard toggles that have to be navigated.&nbsp; It can't all be 'normal human' sim time because the game doesn't allow for that.&nbsp; I'm not sure what, past that, you think I'm advocating as a stance.&nbsp; I'm leaning into this thread's definition of simulation as being &quot;like the real world&quot; as a goal.&nbsp; I disagree that's a useful definition of simulation, because you can absolutely simulate genre which doesn't look like the real world.&nbsp; This is when 'action movie' sim comes in.&nbsp; But, I'm trying to stick to the thread premise.Yeah, if you're going with the thread premise definition of simulation, you literally cannot do this because you're just making stuff up that doesn't exist in the real world at all.&nbsp; You can't use the thread definition of simulation as 'like the real world' for things that don't and can't exist/happen in the real world.&nbsp; That's just making stuff up.&nbsp; And there isn't a 'spectrum' here, it's a toggle -- you're making it up or trying to model the real world.&nbsp; It's not both for the same thing (although you could be both modeling the real world for this aspect and, at the same time, making stuff up for this other aspect).&nbsp; Really, the point here is to be honest about the process of play -- what is it we're doing.&nbsp; It's not saying that this or that is bad, or wrong, or unnecessary, just that it is. Once you move away from simulation only ever being modelling the real world, then simulation works just fine in fantasy because what you're simulating is genre tropes and genre logic.&nbsp; You're creating a coherent and consistent set of cause and effect, just one not at all based on the real world.&nbsp; That's the point being made.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8673562, member: 16814"] No one's made this argument in this thread. Except you, seemingly in an attempt to discredit the arguments actually being made. Hence why I noted it as an interesting tack. I have no issues with sim. I happen to think games like Stonetop, a PbtA Dungeon World hack, do a more consistent job of it than D&D does because D&D has those hard and strange toggles. Pointing out those toggles in how D&D does the sim stuff and what it means isn't an argument for gamism -- it's just pointing out how it works and what has to be reconciled. You seem to be acknowledging my stance -- there's hard toggles that have to be navigated. It can't all be 'normal human' sim time because the game doesn't allow for that. I'm not sure what, past that, you think I'm advocating as a stance. I'm leaning into this thread's definition of simulation as being "like the real world" as a goal. I disagree that's a useful definition of simulation, because you can absolutely simulate genre which doesn't look like the real world. This is when 'action movie' sim comes in. But, I'm trying to stick to the thread premise. Yeah, if you're going with the thread premise definition of simulation, you literally cannot do this because you're just making stuff up that doesn't exist in the real world at all. You can't use the thread definition of simulation as 'like the real world' for things that don't and can't exist/happen in the real world. That's just making stuff up. And there isn't a 'spectrum' here, it's a toggle -- you're making it up or trying to model the real world. It's not both for the same thing (although you could be both modeling the real world for this aspect and, at the same time, making stuff up for this other aspect). Really, the point here is to be honest about the process of play -- what is it we're doing. It's not saying that this or that is bad, or wrong, or unnecessary, just that it [I]is[/I]. Once you move away from simulation only ever being modelling the real world, then simulation works just fine in fantasy because what you're simulating is genre tropes and genre logic. You're creating a coherent and consistent set of cause and effect, just one not at all based on the real world. That's the point being made. [/QUOTE]

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