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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8675293" data-attributes="member: 16814">No, but not being a simulation does.&nbsp; There's nothing being simulated by dragons in how they work in the fiction.&nbsp; Instead, we have some arbitrary things that are made up (perfectly fine, required even) and then some game rules made up (again, perfectly fine) that have no intent to do anything to model what a airliner sized, flying, most armored things in the game, powerfully strong, powerfully tough, and possessing an extraordinary level of dexterity for it's sheer size actually works when a human in armor, no magic, steps up to fight it.&nbsp; That's not at all what's happening.That we get in the simulation by having that same human be completely limited to non-world-class professional athleticism, but imagine that he suddenly erupts in superhuman athleticism to fight the dragon shows that 5e's attempt at simulation is terribly flawed and jarring.&nbsp; If you're okay with it, then say that -- you don't mind the sudden shift.&nbsp; But you might want to tell [USER=7025508]@Crimson Longinus[/USER] that you're in the same boat I am when it comes to running 5e.The facts here aren't about real dragons, but about the game rules.&nbsp; You read the game rules, and then rationalized how that looks.&nbsp; After the fact of reading the game rules.&nbsp; That's the post hoc.&nbsp; Surely you don't intend to say that you're version of dragons were set ahead of reading the game rules?Wait, what?&nbsp; Are you seriously trying to explain a professional martial sport in game rule terms?&nbsp; That's... well, it's something. And, no, hp and attack bonus are not simulating anything real.&nbsp; They're made up ways to play a game.&nbsp; You cannot simulate a real MMA fight with hp and attack bonuses.&nbsp; Doesn't tell you anything.&nbsp; Instead, this is the post-hoc justification you've created.&nbsp; The game gave you attack bonuses and hitpoints, and you've created this story.&nbsp; And it's pretty clear this is the case because each edition has done this very differently (how hp are given out, how attack bonuses are) and yet the continuation line of what D&amp;D is supposed to be simulating has remained the same.Okay, pull the other one.&nbsp; You went from arguing simulation to arguing not following game rules.&nbsp; Those are completely different targets.&nbsp; But you tried to dismiss my argument about simulation with one about game rules.&nbsp; That's moving the goalposts, whether or not you throw a shrug emoji at it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8675293, member: 16814"] No, but not being a simulation does. There's nothing being simulated by dragons in how they work in the fiction. Instead, we have some arbitrary things that are made up (perfectly fine, required even) and then some game rules made up (again, perfectly fine) that have no intent to do anything to model what a airliner sized, flying, most armored things in the game, powerfully strong, powerfully tough, and possessing an extraordinary level of dexterity for it's sheer size actually works when a human in armor, no magic, steps up to fight it. That's not at all what's happening. That we get in the simulation by having that same human be completely limited to non-world-class professional athleticism, but imagine that he suddenly erupts in superhuman athleticism to fight the dragon shows that 5e's attempt at simulation is terribly flawed and jarring. If you're okay with it, then say that -- you don't mind the sudden shift. But you might want to tell [USER=7025508]@Crimson Longinus[/USER] that you're in the same boat I am when it comes to running 5e. The facts here aren't about real dragons, but about the game rules. You read the game rules, and then rationalized how that looks. After the fact of reading the game rules. That's the post hoc. Surely you don't intend to say that you're version of dragons were set ahead of reading the game rules? Wait, what? Are you seriously trying to explain a professional martial sport in game rule terms? That's... well, it's something. And, no, hp and attack bonus are not simulating anything real. They're made up ways to play a game. You cannot simulate a real MMA fight with hp and attack bonuses. Doesn't tell you anything. Instead, this is the post-hoc justification you've created. The game gave you attack bonuses and hitpoints, and you've created this story. And it's pretty clear this is the case because each edition has done this very differently (how hp are given out, how attack bonuses are) and yet the continuation line of what D&D is supposed to be simulating has remained the same. Okay, pull the other one. You went from arguing simulation to arguing not following game rules. Those are completely different targets. But you tried to dismiss my argument about simulation with one about game rules. That's moving the goalposts, whether or not you throw a shrug emoji at it. [/QUOTE]

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