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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8675920" data-attributes="member: 6696971">And Micah Sweet accusation of threadcrapping?The lead post was about Simulation - How and Why?  That is 100 % what the Ancient Wyrm vs Fighter conversation is about! One of the primary tenets of 5e design was that they were going to start with the fiction of D&D and build mechanics through natural language that hews to that. This might have been the very first designer goal we saw out of Mearls, Crawford et al.The issue I’ve been angling at is that the problem that D&D has and needs to resolve (see Simulation - How and Why?) is that one of its two staple classes (Fighter and Wizard) fights monsters (even lower tier ones like Trolls, Ogres, Giant/Ethereal Spiders, Displacer Beasts, Wyverns) where the fiction requires superhuman athletic prowess to merely survive sparring with let alone actually slaying the creature! But then this superhuman athletic prowess inexplicably disappears outside of the fiction of combat!That is not Fiction First design (as was intended)! That’s Fiction Never!And then people point to the Mechanics (Mechanics First) as their cue for the fiction! This was not the design intent of the 5e designers! Things have become inverted.See [USER=16814]@Ovinomancer[/USER] example of DW for how Fiction First design and play resolves.Where is this strawman you’re accusing me of? What argument have I distorted or misrepresented? And why are you leading with that (inexplicable) accusation rather than addressing the receipts (which you fail to address)?Here is a tutorial on how strawmanning works (feel free to reference it in the future):Person 1: Subset of thing x (D&D Ancient Wyrms) is inspired by thing y (Smaug) from thing z (The Hobbit).Person 2: All of thing x (D&D) isn’t thing z (The Hobbit).That format is a strawman. Can we get back to those receipts that you didn’t address (which was the point of my post)? Late AD&D w/ FR Greybox > Master Set > Immortals Set > 2e > 3e > 4e.29 years minimum of Ancient Wyrms of calamitous size in the fiction of D&D. If you need exact sizes, you can find actual metrics for everything listed in 2e, 3e and 4e with lengths of 88 - 150 ft, wingspans of 150 ft, weights from 165000 lbs to 1.28 million lbs (again, already referenced…3 times now).And to get back to the thrust of the post (and the point of engagement with the thread), how do we resolve the discontinuities of Fighter athletic prowess in combat and out of combat (Simulation - How and Why?)?My proposal for actual Fiction First design and play (Simulation - How and Why?)? Make them more physically capable than they presently are and make that scale through the levels such that Epic Tier (where they’re clashing with Ancient Wyrms) sees superheroic Fighters. Discontinuities resolved.And much easier to GM (framing endgame obstacles and resolving action declarations - setting DCs and saying “yes” or “no” to action declarations - becomes more intuitive and easier with an established and functional baseline).</blockquote>

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