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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8679202" data-attributes="member: 42582">As with [USER=22779]@Hussar[/USER]'s post upthread, this means that 4e D&D's Come and Get It counts as, or is a part of, a simulation: the fighter performs some sort of manoeuvre using their weapon, as a result of which their opponents end up closer to them, and get beaten up. This absolutely gives the impression of mimicking the environment and the events we're trying to evoke in our play!This technical definition is not the same as what I've quoted just above. Obviously, combat is a process that has a flow of events, and hence can be simulated; but no version of D&D mimics the operation of that process, nor provides evidence for decision-making by testing scenarios. In D&D we don't make decisions based on modelling the process: we make decisions by actually participating in a gameplay process (that involves rolling dice, adjusting hit point tallies, perhaps tracking position on a board, etc). We don't simulate playing the game - we actually play the game.Here, I agree with [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER]. If we're establishing the fiction by reading it off the game rules, then whatever those rules might be, they're not a simulation of anything. Because the supposed "thing" - the fiction - is not establishing any parameters against which we measure the adequacy of the rules outcomes.This particular bit makes no sense to me, for different reasons: whatever is involved in a person getting better at hand-to-hand fighting will also make them faster, stronger etc in general, such that they are better at jumping, and perhaps also at pole vaulting (although the latter does use a more specific skill set). You can't be strong and fast enough to stand against a dragon, for instance, without also being strong and fast enough to pull of other amazing athletic feats (like throwing things long distances, pushing over heavy objects, lifting great weights, jumping far, etc).The 5e Basic Rules (p 71) say that "you can move through a hostile creature’s space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you." A Bugbear is classified as Medium, STR 15, 27 hp; an Ogre as Large, STR 19, 59 hp; a Young Red Dragon as Large, STR 23, 178 hp (cf a crocodile which is Large, STR 15, 19 hp). What stops the Ogre or the Dragon from just pushing past a human warrior, as a bear or elephant would?The ability of a human warrior to stop an Ogre or dragon just pushing past them comes up a fair bit in D&D melee combat, I think. And how does a fighter shove an Ogre, or a Young Red Dragon? If they're strong and/or fast enough to do that, they're pretty athletic!Also, p 73 of the Basic Rules tells us that "[o]n a hit, an unarmed strike deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier." For a 20 STR fighter, that's 6 hp. So a 20th level fighter can punch a crocodile to death in one round of combat. That's a pretty strong person! Wouldn't they be able to push over cars, punch down doors, even knock over small houses, etc?EDIT: A BattleMaster can use superiority dice and manoeuvres to push the Ogre 15 feet away! And adding d8 superiority dice to damage means that an 18 STR fighter can kill the crocodile with two punches (2*(1+4) + 2d8 =, on average, 19 hp of damage). So a 5th level fighter can pull off this superhuman feat!</blockquote>

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