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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8274981" data-attributes="member: 42582">I don't agree with your conclusion: I think that Gygaxian &quot;skilled play&quot; is a real thing, and it's different from (say) playing Apocalypse World well.What I think your post does point to, though, is a basic instability in skilled play: there is a strong element of &quot;ecological development&quot; as you describe; but that doesn't generalise well outside the circumstance within which it evolved. Yet a widely-played or commercial RPG depends on exactly that sort of generalisation!We can see that with (say) Lurkers Above. When Gygax uses one for the first time, it's a clever response to the approach being taken by players in his game, it keeps them on their toes, and it drives them to improve their play. But when I (as I did) use a Lurker Above in a dungeon that I design and run in the mid-80s, which doesn't have any of that context or baggage, what does it bring to the game? Not a lot.Likewise for many of the more baroque pit traps, sloping passages, door tricks, etc.I think this is a difference between skilled dungeoneering and (say) crosswords, or competitive sports, which TSR didn't fully solve in the period when it still treated skilled play as a thing.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8274981, member: 42582"] I don't agree with your conclusion: I think that Gygaxian "skilled play" is a real thing, and it's different from (say) playing Apocalypse World well. What I think your post does point to, though, is a basic instability in skilled play: there is a strong element of "ecological development" as you describe; but that doesn't generalise well outside the circumstance within which it evolved. Yet a widely-played or commercial RPG depends on exactly that sort of generalisation! We can see that with (say) Lurkers Above. When Gygax uses one for the first time, it's a clever response to the approach being taken by players in his game, it keeps them on their toes, and it drives them to improve their play. But when I (as I did) use a Lurker Above in a dungeon that I design and run in the mid-80s, which doesn't have any of that context or baggage, what does it bring to the game? Not a lot. Likewise for many of the more baroque pit traps, sloping passages, door tricks, etc. I think this is a difference between skilled dungeoneering and (say) crosswords, or competitive sports, which TSR didn't fully solve in the period when it still treated skilled play as a thing. [/QUOTE]

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