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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8275843" data-attributes="member: 71699">I think the OP is talking about Gygaxian "skilled play". Reflecting on [USER=53980]@Fanaelialae[/USER] post above, it quickly evolves to second-guessing the DM. Or consider [USER=6816042]@Arilyn[/USER]'s comment: "his players were getting overly smug" - they were becoming too good at second-guessing him.As far as I can make out, we are in agreement about ToH. It's not a good "stick it into your campaign" module precisely because it is a Gygaxian "skilled play" module. Again referring to [USER=6816042]@Arilyn[/USER]'s post, it's dubious as an example of skilled play (no quote marks) because Gygaxian "skilled play" is not the same as skillful play.As [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] puts it, "it's about playing the fiction". I agree with [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER]'s point here, albeit I say that Gygaxian "skilled play" always relies on players knowing and perforce accepting what their DM will allow. They can't appeal to a rule that says ear-seekers can't get through the wire mesh of modified ear trumpets, when there is no such rule.The argument is emotive because it connects with a long-standing rift as to what are the most important skills in RPG. Are they in managing your presence at the table? Are they in witty dialogue. Voice-acting? Mastery of the mechanics in play? Are they in blending your use of those mechanics seamlessly into the fiction? Do they lie in being able to predict what your DM will allow? Are they in character optimisation? Are they in imaginative use of the game mechanics? Are they in narrating actions that are outside the game mechanics in a way that your group will accept? Are they in imaginative and varied responses to each situation? Or are they more in believable responses to each situation?  Or responses that connect with and depict your character's motivations? Perhaps they are in your ability to evolve your character as a consequence of their experiences? Gygaxian"skilled play" excludes the DM, and thus excludes skills that are vital for engaging and satisfying play.In short, Gygaxian "skilled play" considers only some dimensions of play: modules like ToH were designed to test said dimensions. By using traps and puzzles, they obviate direct applications of the game mechanics. The idea being to force players to play "skillfully" in the Gygaxian sense... but not in other equally valid senses of skilful.</blockquote>

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