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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8276733" data-attributes="member: 42582">Is that a well-formed action declaration for the "crunchy system"? In Burning Wheel it's not. In a 4e skill challenge I think it's not. I gather in most approaches to 3E D&D it is. But it would be a mistake to equate "crunchy system' with 3E D&D.A couple of things.(1) What you say here reinforces my comments, upthread, about the "ecological" aspect of skilled play, and the oddity of just dropping elements invented in that context into a different context which has not lived through the same "evolutionary" history. I personally think this is a big problem for generalising material intended for skilled play.(2) It seems to me a mistake to argue that there was never such a thing as "skilled play". We have the evidence of it - equipment lists with 10' poles and iron spikes, Monster Manuals with ear seekers and lurkers above, etc. We have instructions on how to engage in it as a player (Gygax's PHB, under the heading Successful Adventures which comes just before the Appendices). We have examples of modules written for it (eg KotB, Castle Amber, White Plume Mountain, Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, Ghost Tower of Inverness, the Alice modules, and ToH). It seems pointless to look at these as if they're meant to provide the same sort of experience as (say) the DL modules or the OA modules or any of the 4e modules.It's true that there are borderline cases. The early Hickman modules (I'm thinking Pharoah based on my reading of it, and Ravenloft based on reputation) mix skilled play meatgrinding with an overlay of "story" that is richer than Castle Amber and that is utterly absent in the other modules I mentioned in the previous paragraph. But we shouldn't let these transitional forms blind us to the underlying contrast.I don't think so. It implies that the designer of the new challenge thinks that the boasters don't have what it takes to justify their boasting. This implies standards, and perhaps egos, but not a contest between designer and player.</blockquote>

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