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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 8276889" data-attributes="member: 53980">Right, I wasn't suggesting that all crunchy systems promote skilled play over mechanics. I was saying that you can have a crunchy game that still promotes skilled play, because in that system ingenuity produces better results more reliably. That crunch and skilled play are not two opposite ends of a range, but rather have a more complex relationship.Whether the game is good or crappy is entirely tangential to the discussion. I firmly believe that you can have a good, crunchy game that favors skilled play over mechanics.For example, let's imagine a game with a fun system that doesn't allow retries once the dice are rolled. Rolling the dice represents your character's best effort, so once that is exhausted you can't try again (or can't try again until you meet x criteria).IMO, no retries doesn't make a game crappy (though your opinion might differ).However, in this system you could first try to approach the problem without rolling. This way you don't lock yourself out with a bad roll. If you roll a search check then your character looked everywhere they could think of. But you can say where your character looks before rolling dice, and then do a once over with a rolled check after you've exhausted all the hidden nooks you can think of.Under this system, you could engage purely with the mechanical system but that would be ignoring an obvious tool at your disposal. You have an edge if you engage in skilled play before utilizing the mechanical system, therefore it makes sense to do so. As such, the mechanical system becomes a kind of safety net for those instances where you can't come up with an ingenious solution on your own.Another possible system is one where failure results in a worsening of circumstances. We actually have this in D&D, in several editions, with climb checks. If you roll low enough on a climb check you don't just fail to climb, but also fall. Lo and behold, this is an area of the game where I have gone to great lengths to ensure my character's safety, using tethers and whatnot, because if I can only flub a climb check on a natural 1, there's about an 80% chance that I will flub that check. I've had countless characters saved from death by simply securing a tether first. Not the most ingenious thing, I'll grant, but I think it still constitutes skilled play as put forth in the OP. Is this a crappy system?The point being, your recontextualization of my previous post is off point. Just because a game has a crunchy skill system that promotes skilled play over that skill system, doesn't make it crappy. It could be crappy, but that depends entirely on the implementation of the skill system, and not on whether or not it promotes skilled play.</blockquote>

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