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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8277696" data-attributes="member: 42582">Sure. That wasn't the example I gave. The example I gave was a search/perception check for strange markings at the base of the statue.I search the room is not sufficiently granular in engaging the fiction of B/X. I search the statue is.In my view, I search for secret compartments without a designation of what furniture/item is being searched lacks specificity. I search the statue for hidden compartments is.I can't comment on 3E. But in classic "skilled play" D&D, the expectation is that the GM will enforce the requisite degree of engagement with the fiction. Advice for GMs from the era doesn't use the language we are using in the thread - contemporary analytic vocabulary for talking about RPGing hadn't been invented yet - but it makes the point, with detailed discussions of how to adjudicate action declarations, and what to expect from one's players.Here is Gygax in his DMG (pp 96-97): Movement within buildings is actually the same as in an underground setting. Each square represents an area of 10’ per side, and movement is very slow as observation and map making and searching takes considerable time. Base movement rate translates to 1 square per 1 factor in a turn (10 minute period). In like manner, examination and mapping of a roam or chamber will require about a 10 minute period. Thorough searching of contents and examination of walls, floor, and possibly the ceiling as well is also a lengthy process. How are doors and secret doors opened? and what about locks and fastenings? It is vital that the DM know such details thoroughly, so that the mundane processes of dungeon adventuring can be carried aut rapidly, clearly, and in a fashion which will be interesting and exciting. . . . Travelling along a corridor and mapping its length takes 1 turn per 90', assuming a base move of 9". How long does it take to move along but a short section of passage, open a door, enter the room beyond, and search it? Such variables as passage length, condition of the portal (locked, stuck, or normal), size of the room beyond, and thoroughness of the search make an absolute determination of time nearly impossible. There are many variations of player character activity - looking far signs of use of the corridor, listening for noise, looking for traps, inspection of walls for secret doors, etc - all of which compound the need for an arbitrary handling of time. If a few fixed references are used, the task becomes a good deal easier, however. Therefore, the fallowing suggestions are offered: DOOR - search for traps: 1 round DOOR - listening for noise: 1 round ROOM - mapping, and casually examining a 20’ x 20’area: 1 turn ROOM - thoroughly searching after intial examination*: 1 turn SECRET DOOR - checking for by simple tapping of floor or wall by 10' x 10'area: 1 round SECRET DOOR - thorough examination for means to open, by 10' x 10'orea: 1 turn * This assumes that, in fact, the area has items which can be checked for traps, examined, contents searched, hidden comportments looked for, and so on. If there ore many containers and much furniture in the area, the time might actually be double that shown. If the place has nothing but some odds and ends, then a casual examination will discover all there is to know about the place (short of a check for secret doors) and a thorough search is contra-indicated.[/list] . . . DON'T GIVE PLAYERS A FREE LUNCH! Tell them what they "see", allow them to draw their own conclusions and initiate whatever activity they desire. You are the source of their input, a time keeper, and the motivator of all not connected with them. That is sufficient to keep you busy, rest assured. Assume that your players are continually wasting time (thus making the so-called adventure drag out into a boring session of dice rolling and delay) if they are checking endlessly for traps and listening at every door. If this persists, despite the obvious displeasure you express, the requirement that helmets be doffed and mail coifs removed to listen at a door, and then be carefully replaced, the warnings about ear seekers, and frequent checking for wandering monsters (qv), then you will have to take more direct part in things. Mocking their over-cautious behavior as near cowardice, rolling huge handfuls of dice and then telling them the results are negative, and statements to the effect that: "You detect nothing, and nothing has detected YOU so far - ", might suffice. If the problem should continue, then rooms full with silent monsters will turn the tide, but that is the stuff of later adventures. [Secret doors] can possibly be sensed or detected by characters who are actively concentrating on such activity, or their possible location may be discovered by tapping (though the hollow place could be another passage or room beyond which has no portal in the hollow-sounding surface). Discovery does not mean that access to the door mechanism has been discovered, however. Checking requires a very thorough examination of the possible secret door area. You may use either of two methods to allow discovery of the mechanism which operates the portal: 1. You may designate probability by a linear curve, typically with a d6. Thus, a secret door is discovered 1 in 6 by any non-elf, 2 in 6 by elven or half-elven characters, each character being allowed to roll each turn in checking a 10' X 10' area. This also allows you to have some secret doors more difficult to discover, the linear curve being a d8 or d10. 2. You may have the discovery of the existence of the secret door enable player characters to attempt to operate it by actual manipulation, i.e. the players concerned give instructions as to how they will have their characters attempt to make it function: "Turn the wall sconce.", "Slide it left.", "Press the small protrusion, and see if it pivots.", "Pull the chain." It is quite acceptable to have a mixture of methods of discovering the operation of secret door.From this we can get a sense of what level of granular detail Gygax anticipated in respect of various bits of architecture and furnishing. It is not "natural" or inevitable; it's a particular decision (implicit if not explicit) about what to focus on.</blockquote>

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