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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 8278549" data-attributes="member: 7023840">So two things-1. The poker example is just a simplified example of "rule utilitarianism." Let's make it more clear- imagine that there's a rule, like Priest/Penitent confidentiality, or Attorney/Client privilege. There might be individual times that having the rule sucks, right? Imagine that the priest hears that the penitent murdered someone, or the attorney was told some damaging piece of evidence. The harm of the rule, in that case, is greater than the good of it! But ... if the rule doesn't apply, if it can be voided on an ad hoc basis, then people stop depending on it. The overall utility of the rule is lessened. In other words, the utility is not measured by the consequences of the act, but by the consequences of the rule. So when it comes to SP, as noted by others, the idea of "save or die" (for example) as a consequence is not measured by how much it sucks when it happens, instead what matters is the utility of the rule- in that it leads to more SP, which is to say, it leads to people trying to avoid the save or die situations. 2. Your analysis is bizarre for a simple reason- if something exists, then it seems odd to say that (for example), "I'm not sure that a game can be truly difficult on those terms{.}" Simply put, if other people are telling you that they engage in a modality of play, it is borderline dismissive for you to assert that. It would be similar to someone saying, "Oh, you're one of those people that does everything with skills, right? Glorified button masher. How can a game be difficult on those terms?" I mean ... that would betray a profound ignorance of an entire modality of play, and be kind of insulting. 3. Finally, as I already stated, skilled play is mode of play that was emphasized early on, but that didn't mean that there wasn't (for example) role play, optimization, or any number of other ways of engaging with the game.</blockquote>

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