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<blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 8280990" data-attributes="member: 7023840"><p>Well, to start with, you used the specific example of combat (opposition) as opposed to diplomacy (persuasion). Hit an NPC as opposed to talk to an NPC.</p><p></p><p>As I explained, there is a very good reason for that historical distinction, and it is a distinction and a difference. It's the difference between Diplomacy (caps, the game) and a double-blind wargame with a referee.</p><p></p><p>The distinction comes when you have the referee "step in the shoes" of the NPCs.</p><p></p><p>To go to your issue with the Braunstein case- yes, that would be a problem if you were an ambassador! And you would likely lose. Doesn't make it not a game. Just like you can be bad at Diplomacy (the game). Of course, SP would imply that you would then look for a different approach; again, Arneson was handed a specific role (peaceful pamphleteer) but through SP "won" by using his own <em>player skills </em>differently and in a way that the referee did not expect.</p><p></p><p>This really gets down to the core of the issue; the greatest strength, and weakness, of SP is the referee (DM). A DM that is adversarial, or arbitrary, makes for a terrible experience (just like a biased referee in a sports contest ruins it). A good DM, one that can inhabit different roles and understand that they will have different goals, and one that is accepting of player innovation (and happy to see players find new ways to succeed) is crucial.</p><p></p><p>In other words, you need a good DM to allow for great SP. Otherwise, it doesn't work well for the players. As I stated earlier, most of the "rules" for DMs that we see today are just codifications of "best practices heuristics" that were around during the 70s.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Snarf Zagyg, post: 8280990, member: 7023840"] Well, to start with, you used the specific example of combat (opposition) as opposed to diplomacy (persuasion). Hit an NPC as opposed to talk to an NPC. As I explained, there is a very good reason for that historical distinction, and it is a distinction and a difference. It's the difference between Diplomacy (caps, the game) and a double-blind wargame with a referee. The distinction comes when you have the referee "step in the shoes" of the NPCs. To go to your issue with the Braunstein case- yes, that would be a problem if you were an ambassador! And you would likely lose. Doesn't make it not a game. Just like you can be bad at Diplomacy (the game). Of course, SP would imply that you would then look for a different approach; again, Arneson was handed a specific role (peaceful pamphleteer) but through SP "won" by using his own [I]player skills [/I]differently and in a way that the referee did not expect. This really gets down to the core of the issue; the greatest strength, and weakness, of SP is the referee (DM). A DM that is adversarial, or arbitrary, makes for a terrible experience (just like a biased referee in a sports contest ruins it). A good DM, one that can inhabit different roles and understand that they will have different goals, and one that is accepting of player innovation (and happy to see players find new ways to succeed) is crucial. In other words, you need a good DM to allow for great SP. Otherwise, it doesn't work well for the players. As I stated earlier, most of the "rules" for DMs that we see today are just codifications of "best practices heuristics" that were around during the 70s. [/QUOTE]
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