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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8281016" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Right, you are contrasting a 'puzzle' with a 'contest', but that is just GM framing. The GM could write in his notes just "there's a thing hidden in the room." He could also write in his notes "this goblin's fighting style is X, and move Y will always defeat it." and that would be a puzzle too! Puzzle and Contest are simply alternate framings of a situation. Or as Pemerton described, the chest could contain a very clever false compartment that the GM decrees you must pass a check to find.</p><p></p><p>At this point we start to get into areas that go beyond where this thread has ventured so far. [USER=7023840]@Snarf Zagyg[/USER] hinted at that when he said something to, I think it was [USER=6790260]@EzekielRaiden[/USER] about how framing a Diplomacy scene such that it was a bottleneck was a GM error, not a fault of any given style of play. You can go further and begin to analyze WHY would you want to have a puzzle here, or a contest there, etc. Maybe it is because you like one more than the other, or it could be that one or the other (or some third thing like just describing how the PCs move from A to B in the fiction with no mechanics employed) has more utility in a gamist sense in that situation. </p><p></p><p>Again, I think Snarf pointed out that Gary was thoroughly gamist. Nothing in his D&D suggests 'realism' was a consideration beyond the level of genre conventions and basically making situations 'cognizable' to the players so they could make sensible moves. His goal seems to be mostly to make things challenging for the players so they have fun playing a game of challenges, and THAT is probably the only definition of SP there can be. It is simply a game where the agenda is a specific agenda. I think we have got here a few times already, by slightly different logic each time <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8281016, member: 82106"] Right, you are contrasting a 'puzzle' with a 'contest', but that is just GM framing. The GM could write in his notes just "there's a thing hidden in the room." He could also write in his notes "this goblin's fighting style is X, and move Y will always defeat it." and that would be a puzzle too! Puzzle and Contest are simply alternate framings of a situation. Or as Pemerton described, the chest could contain a very clever false compartment that the GM decrees you must pass a check to find. At this point we start to get into areas that go beyond where this thread has ventured so far. [USER=7023840]@Snarf Zagyg[/USER] hinted at that when he said something to, I think it was [USER=6790260]@EzekielRaiden[/USER] about how framing a Diplomacy scene such that it was a bottleneck was a GM error, not a fault of any given style of play. You can go further and begin to analyze WHY would you want to have a puzzle here, or a contest there, etc. Maybe it is because you like one more than the other, or it could be that one or the other (or some third thing like just describing how the PCs move from A to B in the fiction with no mechanics employed) has more utility in a gamist sense in that situation. Again, I think Snarf pointed out that Gary was thoroughly gamist. Nothing in his D&D suggests 'realism' was a consideration beyond the level of genre conventions and basically making situations 'cognizable' to the players so they could make sensible moves. His goal seems to be mostly to make things challenging for the players so they have fun playing a game of challenges, and THAT is probably the only definition of SP there can be. It is simply a game where the agenda is a specific agenda. I think we have got here a few times already, by slightly different logic each time :) [/QUOTE]
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