NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="The-Magic-Sword" data-source="post: 8289750" data-attributes="member: 6801252">I'd go in the opposite direction and interpret the distinction between 'Gygaxian Skilled Play' and 'Skilled Play/MSP' as being somewhat contrived, and at most derived primarily from cultural differences between players-- chiefly in their expectations for where the choices from which they derive problem-solving agency (the marker of 'skill') is located. 'Skilled Play' itself, in my eyes, is simply players being able to solve problems through application of their skillset, whatever that skillset consists of, as a focus of play-- contrasted with play that isn't about problem-solving at all (e.g. games where the emphasis is on telling a story to the extent that problem-solving is in the way of dramatic interactions between characters, and the execution of a story arc.)This means that describing the procedures one searches the environment with, develops plans to defeat foes, and such in an OSR context is Skilled Play,  4e and Pathfinder 2e style wargaming combat as sport  with lots of tactical decisions to make style encounter design is Skilled Play, and that 3.5e and Pathfinder 1e character optimization where problems are solved at character creation through skillfull character design, are all Skilled Play.The reason to break down the barriers and acknowledge this, is that I don't want to silo the discussion in such a way that these become clear genres with explicit rules dividing them, I'd rather see the techniques used in them blended and synthesized in different ways to create a multitude of permutations of skilled play that have different effects on the game world. Rolls for things like searching a room instead of descriptions of how the room is searched isn't emblematic of another style of game, its a game design solution to the problem of experienced players developing SOP that neutralize the uncertainty their personal skill was meant to resolve-- in other words for experienced players there's no tension in searching a room through the traditional means of describing how you search it, because they're going to run down the list of search methodology they developed years before (or as one user described, literally hand the GM a book, and conduct the procedures in the book manually should the GM refuse to automate).Since we want that tension and mystery in the game (and want to have times where things aren't found) we can instead disclaim that decision making to character statistics and dice rolls, which in turn allows players to engage their character building skillset to create characters that are better or worse at these activities, ideally while retaining at least some degree of tension-- introducing another avenue of Skilled Play to express itself, albeit one that wasn't a part of the game some people got used to, it also helped to ground the characters in the world, because they're people with actual skillsets, and things they're good and bad at, in this context a character build in later editions of DND is like the sword with which a swordsman expresses their skill, a better character is analogous to better weighting or tougher materials or what have you. Other skills, such as tactical acumen, puzzles, and plans to solve overall problems are more dynamic-- they can't be automated or streamlined in the same way, so they stay an element of personal skill on the part of the player.This suggests that all of these games are 'Skilled Play' games, and are inter-textual with each other in that context-- simply solving problems that arise in different ways (or not at all) and introducing new forms of skill into that mix of skilled play. They use the same elements, but in different ratios that produce wildly and subtly different experiences, but they all pertain to that core idea of the game being about overcoming challenges to achieve your goals, and a story arising from that in an emergent manner which is the essence of Skilled Play, in my eyes, and necessary for the term to be meaningful at all.</blockquote>

Verification