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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8289987" data-attributes="member: 82106">Well... the model is pretty different. There are 'moves', but DW (PbtA generally I assume) is truly fiction first. Players don't get to say "I'm using Hack & Slash", they have to describe their actions in terms of the fiction. There is also very little player-facing rules structure. There are no 'turns', 'initiative', or anything like that. The player states what his character does, and the GM determines whether or not anything needs to be resolved, and if failure would be interesting. If so he determines which move covers the action and asks for a 'check'. There are very few modifiers to checks. PC's ability score mods might apply, and maybe something like 'hold' (representing the effect of a spell or an advantage gained from preparing beforehand, etc. usually specifically called out as a consequence of another move). That being said, MOST of the time it is pretty clear what move will be used, if I cast a Sleep spell at an orc, you can be pretty sure the move is 'Cast A Spell' (a wizard-specific move). Still, there is no notion of difficulty, nor really of anything like 'advantage' or 'disadvantage'. The dice roll is there to determine strictly whether the move resulted in a negative consequence (either spelled out or a GM move), a success (player gets their new fictional positioning) with consequences/drawback, or if they advance the fiction exactly as intended (and maybe get something extra at times, or get the best possible result). This is less a test of skill than it is a way of making the evolution of the story uncertain, though not ENTIRELY. Certainly there is common sense skill involved, and DW has gear, etc. which can provide options or fix problems.To continue from above... Eh, I think there are VERY clearly 'better' and 'worse' moves for a given player to make at a specific point. A wizard PC would not normally try to melee an orc. Players recklessly bashing through doors and making a lot of noise will probably find that the GM's moves will consist of rapidly (that is in fictional time) escalating the amount of attention that monsters pay to them, or springing some traps on them, etc. OTOH, I agree that the GOAL of the game, that is the GM's agenda at least, includes putting the PCs under pressure. That is going to happen, guaranteed, unless the GM is failing to play correctly. So, regardless of how clever the players are, they are going to be in hot water soon. It is more like the players get to choose their poison, they can't really avoid trouble altogether. IN THEORY players in a Gygax dungeon COULD, though I'm pretty sure Gygax would say that the proper response to that would be to add more difficult elements to the dungeon (or ones which negate the players tactics, etc.). A while back I stated that the OD&D and DW agendas might not be so different in practice, this is what I meant.I don't think anyone would argue otherwise. Plainly if you start throwing molotov cocktails around your starship in Traveller that will not prove to be skilled play... However, I think we can still recognize a Traveller equivalent to a dungeon (though Traveller has a slightly different agenda than early D&D). In fact, isn't the VERY FIRST Traveller module basically a dungeon? It is, IIRC, a derelict starship, filled with nasty stuff!I think Gary could have applied exactly the same formula to other games. In fact I think Metamorphosis Alpha/Gamma World do pretty much exactly that (granted that the tone is pretty absurdist in GW overall). Boot Hill could be played that way as well, though it tends to devolve down into a skirmish game. I agree that the Dungeon of D&D is a sort of paragon of this concept however.</blockquote>

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