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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8290860" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>I'm not clear on what you're putting forth here? Is it "some games aren't well-constructed/encoded such that creativity and/or skilled play becomes muted so that play and the trajectory of play isn't governed by those things?"</p><p></p><p>If that is your contention, that that is trivially true in all games (from competitive physical sports to TTRPGing). I'm not sure what work you're intending that to do here?</p><p></p><p>However, even in a game like kickball (which falls toward the lower end of skilled play and/or creativity governing play) its also a triviality to note the following features of play:</p><p></p><p>* More skilled/creative players will identify the weak spots in the defense and <em>kick the ball were they ain't </em>(as the adage goes).</p><p></p><p>* More skilled/creative players will be able to pre-kick pump fake/deke their intended placement of the ball as they're addressing it on the run-up (to lure the defense or a defender in a direction just like a QB in American Football manipulates a back 7 defender/Safety).</p><p></p><p>* Some players will be faster, more coordinated, have better arm strength/accuracy. All of these will have a decisive impact on both sides of the ball but particularly when playing defense (on the Venn Diagram with Dodgeball, there will be huge overlap in skill).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Are you asking me if some games are easier to referee or judge than others? Sure. Of course. </p><p></p><p>But golf is an interesting game because (a) its an extraordinarily rules-dense system that requires both letter and spirit understanding while simultaneously (b) relying upon a damn near unenforceable social contract where players govern all aspects of their play and even assess themselves Stroke Penalties! And when there are questions related to the PGA rules or for this particular course's rules, martials are called over to govern the interaction (and they may be missing key pieces of interactions that have taken place before they arrived...such as intentional or accidental ball manipulation by a competitor). </p><p></p><p>The PGA tour has been having many issues of late with this (and some of the omission or commission or rules violations/adjudications have the same competitor involved!)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm sure you had a great time, but once you start going completely outside of the rules for your play, at a certain level of departure from the ruleset and the paradigm of play fundamentally means <em>you aren't playing <strong>this </strong>particular game anymore</em>. A game featuring F-14s (and any sort of decision-points/action resolution around aerial combat resolution of dogfights) simply isn't playing a Moldvay Basic Dungeon Crawl.</p><p></p><p>You can absolutely still bin it broadly under the D&D umbrella...but you aren't playing Moldvay Basic. So whatever statement being made about system or skillfulness deployed within a particular game ceases to have utility in the discussion of playing the actual game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 8290860, member: 6696971"] I'm not clear on what you're putting forth here? Is it "some games aren't well-constructed/encoded such that creativity and/or skilled play becomes muted so that play and the trajectory of play isn't governed by those things?" If that is your contention, that that is trivially true in all games (from competitive physical sports to TTRPGing). I'm not sure what work you're intending that to do here? However, even in a game like kickball (which falls toward the lower end of skilled play and/or creativity governing play) its also a triviality to note the following features of play: * More skilled/creative players will identify the weak spots in the defense and [I]kick the ball were they ain't [/I](as the adage goes). * More skilled/creative players will be able to pre-kick pump fake/deke their intended placement of the ball as they're addressing it on the run-up (to lure the defense or a defender in a direction just like a QB in American Football manipulates a back 7 defender/Safety). * Some players will be faster, more coordinated, have better arm strength/accuracy. All of these will have a decisive impact on both sides of the ball but particularly when playing defense (on the Venn Diagram with Dodgeball, there will be huge overlap in skill). Are you asking me if some games are easier to referee or judge than others? Sure. Of course. But golf is an interesting game because (a) its an extraordinarily rules-dense system that requires both letter and spirit understanding while simultaneously (b) relying upon a damn near unenforceable social contract where players govern all aspects of their play and even assess themselves Stroke Penalties! And when there are questions related to the PGA rules or for this particular course's rules, martials are called over to govern the interaction (and they may be missing key pieces of interactions that have taken place before they arrived...such as intentional or accidental ball manipulation by a competitor). The PGA tour has been having many issues of late with this (and some of the omission or commission or rules violations/adjudications have the same competitor involved!) I'm sure you had a great time, but once you start going completely outside of the rules for your play, at a certain level of departure from the ruleset and the paradigm of play fundamentally means [I]you aren't playing [B]this [/B]particular game anymore[/I]. A game featuring F-14s (and any sort of decision-points/action resolution around aerial combat resolution of dogfights) simply isn't playing a Moldvay Basic Dungeon Crawl. You can absolutely still bin it broadly under the D&D umbrella...but you aren't playing Moldvay Basic. So whatever statement being made about system or skillfulness deployed within a particular game ceases to have utility in the discussion of playing the actual game. [/QUOTE]
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