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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8290895" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I wasn't at your table. But I am guessing that you used techniques that are not stated by Gygax in his AD&D books - including one you mention in your post, of choosing player goals.</p><p></p><p>Probably also for resolving player actions, unless all the action took place in a classic dungeon.</p><p></p><p>The only version of D&D I know of which has rules that encourage the players rather than the GM to establish antagonism is 4e (with its rules for player-authored quests). It also has rules to support the resolution of non-combat situations other than via granular engagement with and extrapolation of the fiction (ie skill challenges).</p><p></p><p>4e also has other rules/systems to fit into the idea of quests - eg the notion of treasure parcels which are completely divorced from the idea of obtaining treasure by skilled play, and instead are periodic entitlements keyed to XP gain which is in turn keyed to the pacing of events in the fiction including the achievement of quests.</p><p></p><p>4e's focus on the "scene"/encounter as the basic unit of play also supports strong GM-side scene-framing which in turn is good for a quest-based game.</p><p></p><p>I've read and re-read Gygax's AD&D pretty closely over the past few years. There's a lot in it, but in many ways it's incredibly narrow. It's action resolution rules do not go very far beyond engaging with geography and architecture. (The reaction and loyalty systems are complex but I'm not sure they're the product of serious playtesting - I don't think they're super-workable.) It assumes that <em>players</em> will take the lead in scene-framing, by choosing where to go and when to fall back - which sits uncomfortably with a quest-oriented game. I've played A&D with strong GM-side framing, but you start to bump into other aspects of the system like its recovery rates being build around "the day" rather than "the scene".</p><p></p><p>When I look back at the most character-driven AD&D I've GMed - which was in the late 80s - I think it would work better in Prince Valiant in one case (an OA game) and perhaps DW in another (an all-thieves game).</p><p></p><p>A version of your second sentence.</p><p></p><p>"Railroad" is a vexed term. I tend to use it more liberally than some other posters. But in Trad and NeoTrad D&D not only is scene-framing strongly under GM control, but so is most establishing of consequences - at least outside of combat there is no action resolution that establishes things with finality. And this manifests itself in modules that are full of advice on what the GM should do to make sure that subsequent events still come to pass even if the outcomes of the current scene suggest that they shouldn't. But those modules are the symptom, not the cause.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8290895, member: 42582"] I wasn't at your table. But I am guessing that you used techniques that are not stated by Gygax in his AD&D books - including one you mention in your post, of choosing player goals. Probably also for resolving player actions, unless all the action took place in a classic dungeon. The only version of D&D I know of which has rules that encourage the players rather than the GM to establish antagonism is 4e (with its rules for player-authored quests). It also has rules to support the resolution of non-combat situations other than via granular engagement with and extrapolation of the fiction (ie skill challenges). 4e also has other rules/systems to fit into the idea of quests - eg the notion of treasure parcels which are completely divorced from the idea of obtaining treasure by skilled play, and instead are periodic entitlements keyed to XP gain which is in turn keyed to the pacing of events in the fiction including the achievement of quests. 4e's focus on the "scene"/encounter as the basic unit of play also supports strong GM-side scene-framing which in turn is good for a quest-based game. I've read and re-read Gygax's AD&D pretty closely over the past few years. There's a lot in it, but in many ways it's incredibly narrow. It's action resolution rules do not go very far beyond engaging with geography and architecture. (The reaction and loyalty systems are complex but I'm not sure they're the product of serious playtesting - I don't think they're super-workable.) It assumes that [i]players[/i] will take the lead in scene-framing, by choosing where to go and when to fall back - which sits uncomfortably with a quest-oriented game. I've played A&D with strong GM-side framing, but you start to bump into other aspects of the system like its recovery rates being build around "the day" rather than "the scene". When I look back at the most character-driven AD&D I've GMed - which was in the late 80s - I think it would work better in Prince Valiant in one case (an OA game) and perhaps DW in another (an all-thieves game). A version of your second sentence. "Railroad" is a vexed term. I tend to use it more liberally than some other posters. But in Trad and NeoTrad D&D not only is scene-framing strongly under GM control, but so is most establishing of consequences - at least outside of combat there is no action resolution that establishes things with finality. And this manifests itself in modules that are full of advice on what the GM should do to make sure that subsequent events still come to pass even if the outcomes of the current scene suggest that they shouldn't. But those modules are the symptom, not the cause. [/QUOTE]
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