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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8291104" data-attributes="member: 42582">[USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER]From your post, I'm not seeing the relationship between choices have consequences and skilled play.First, I think we're agree that there is some RPGing where the former is not true (ie choices don't have consequences). That's probably a sufficient condition for there being no skilled play in that RPGing. (And we can weaken the strength of the generality: there is some RPGing where consequences are fairly feeble, and hence there is not much room for skilled play. A lot of 2nd ed AD&D would resemble this, especially out of combat.)Second, I think we agree that the former doesn't entail the latter: that is, that the fact that choices have consequences isn't a sufficient condition of the RPGing involving skilled play. The former is true in Prince Valiant - choices certainly have consequences! But I don't think Prince Valiant supports skilled play in any meaningful sense beyond engaging sincerely with the fiction.Perhaps more controversially, my view is that the fact that a system depends on choices about resources doesn't necessarily make it about skilled play. My poster child for this is 4e daily resources: 4e players have to make choices about these, and those choices ramify through into play and the outcomes of play; but I think the degree of GM control over framing and resulting rest schedule is such that players don't get to manifest much skill in those choices. Rather, by making these resource choices players get to (i) show their gumption, and (ii) exercise a degree of initiative over the fiction (this depends on good faith GM framing, similar to Burning Wheel in some ways).My understanding of [USER=82106]@AbdulAlhazred[/USER]'s point is similar: that if the GM is going to be applying pressure come what may (via framing and/or consequence narration) then players can't use skill to avoid or even really minimise that pressure, which is very different from the notion of "skilled play" at work in the Gygaxian tradition.I'd be interested in your response to these thoughts, and how you see them bearing (if at all) on your DW example.</blockquote>

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