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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8291461" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>This is the crux of our other differences of orientation.</p><p></p><p>I don't disagree with this, but I'm left wondering...how is this different than any game that is not either Calvinball or Participationist Cosplay...ever?</p><p></p><p>I mean there is no game where this is not true if the broad formula of play is > legitimate pressure is exerted upon the player's "space" turns into the attendant imposition of decision-points turns into the attendant fallout of action resolution turns into the outgrowth of play that we call "story".</p><p></p><p>Unless you're running the sort of Calvinball or Participationist Cosplay or Dugeons and Beavers w/ these giant lapses in action/interludes where PCs are under no pressure whatsoever and players are just spending an hour of actual play making biscuits or arranging shelves or window-shopping dresses or flirting with wait staff...if that is your game...then yes, that is an entirely different affair than what we are discussing here.</p><p></p><p>Games like Dogs in the Vineyard and Mouse Guard and Torchbearer and 4e D&D and Apocalypse World (and all its derivatives) and Blades in the Dark (and all its derivatives) spend zero time on that stuff and the game's engine and ethos constantly puts PCs in that crucible of pressure + decision-point + fallout = find out who these people are. </p><p></p><p>But the propulsive power and the ethos behind that play loop (<strong>there is always a next scene where pressure meets decision point meets fallout = who these people are</strong>) doesn't suddenly mean that actual play isn't tactically or strategically vital. "Be expressive" doesn't suddenly equal "your expressive decisions are tactically/strategically inert" or that you don't have a responsibility to i<em>nvest play with both boldness and tactical competence</em> (because your characters are tough and capable remember...if you forgot the system will remind you).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think this is another thing. I don't look at like a Soap Opera and I'm not oriented to it like a Soap Opera prior to play. I look at it like a Crucible and that is how I'm oriented toward it while I'm GMing. At least in the midst of the experience of the actual play itself. Now maybe upon reflection/post-mortem, it feels like a Soap Opera...but the actual play of it? It feels like a Crucible. I'm testing these people. I'm interested in their stories. I'm rooting for them from afar. But the guy running their opposition? I'm trying to crush them with the structure and means the game invests me with. I'm using their thematic material and the premise of play as a weapon. I want to see how they respond when I turn it against them by filling their life with danger (and through that, find out who they are). </p><p></p><p>But just because its a continuous process of danger > decision-point > fallout doesn't suddenly mean that the gamestate is perpetually mine. Their job is to wrest the gamestate from me...and in the process we find out about their characters and the world they inhabit. That is the crucible.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 8291461, member: 6696971"] This is the crux of our other differences of orientation. I don't disagree with this, but I'm left wondering...how is this different than any game that is not either Calvinball or Participationist Cosplay...ever? I mean there is no game where this is not true if the broad formula of play is > legitimate pressure is exerted upon the player's "space" turns into the attendant imposition of decision-points turns into the attendant fallout of action resolution turns into the outgrowth of play that we call "story". Unless you're running the sort of Calvinball or Participationist Cosplay or Dugeons and Beavers w/ these giant lapses in action/interludes where PCs are under no pressure whatsoever and players are just spending an hour of actual play making biscuits or arranging shelves or window-shopping dresses or flirting with wait staff...if that is your game...then yes, that is an entirely different affair than what we are discussing here. Games like Dogs in the Vineyard and Mouse Guard and Torchbearer and 4e D&D and Apocalypse World (and all its derivatives) and Blades in the Dark (and all its derivatives) spend zero time on that stuff and the game's engine and ethos constantly puts PCs in that crucible of pressure + decision-point + fallout = find out who these people are. But the propulsive power and the ethos behind that play loop ([B]there is always a next scene where pressure meets decision point meets fallout = who these people are[/B]) doesn't suddenly mean that actual play isn't tactically or strategically vital. "Be expressive" doesn't suddenly equal "your expressive decisions are tactically/strategically inert" or that you don't have a responsibility to i[I]nvest play with both boldness and tactical competence[/I] (because your characters are tough and capable remember...if you forgot the system will remind you). I think this is another thing. I don't look at like a Soap Opera and I'm not oriented to it like a Soap Opera prior to play. I look at it like a Crucible and that is how I'm oriented toward it while I'm GMing. At least in the midst of the experience of the actual play itself. Now maybe upon reflection/post-mortem, it feels like a Soap Opera...but the actual play of it? It feels like a Crucible. I'm testing these people. I'm interested in their stories. I'm rooting for them from afar. But the guy running their opposition? I'm trying to crush them with the structure and means the game invests me with. I'm using their thematic material and the premise of play as a weapon. I want to see how they respond when I turn it against them by filling their life with danger (and through that, find out who they are). But just because its a continuous process of danger > decision-point > fallout doesn't suddenly mean that the gamestate is perpetually mine. Their job is to wrest the gamestate from me...and in the process we find out about their characters and the world they inhabit. That is the crucible. [/QUOTE]
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