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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8292313" data-attributes="member: 82106">It seemed clear enough to me <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />I think one of [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER]'s contentions WRT DW (and I guess BitD) is that skilled play and RP/characterization considerations are NOT orthogonal because the game deliberately invests them with mechanical weight bearing on success or failure at tasks in the game. He furthermore describes 'Win Cons' for these games in terms of successfully expressing certain preferred outcomes in the fiction, and in gaining rewards like XP. [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] It occurs to me, in respect of our discussion about sports, that there are two ways that competitive activities could share characteristics. Most sports have scoring systems. Even in cases where scoring is not an integral play activity there are scores (IE gymnastics, though it partakes less of the character of game than some things, still it is part of the Olympic GAMES). So, I see this as ONE way that you can have concordance, two activities can both involve scoring.Another form of concordance is in terms of process/rules/structure, like the way field sports have clearly similar elements which can be equated (IE the field, teams, goals, player positions, McGuffin handling rules, etc.). The second form of concordance facilitates merging of activities, and I would say RPGs pretty generally fall under that umbrella. You can combine Boot Hill with AD&D because they have PCs, players, GMs, combat, some sort of dice-based checks, etc. The first form of concordance doesn't seem to me to particularly facilitate merging, except that its presence or absence might be critical (IE it would be pretty hard to merge 2 games where one is non-competitive and doesn't involve scoring and the other does, though maybe not impossible). Maybe this helps? I mean, it may help to understand why we have trouble imagining how you would merge the play processes of GSP with story games... While Manbearcat argues that some of them at least have a competitive 'Win Cons' architecture, I'm not so sure myself. I don't think the idea of 'Winning' DW is that compelling to me. Certainly not to the degree that winning classic D&D might be.</blockquote>

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