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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quasqueton" data-source="post: 3791196" data-attributes="member: 3854">Um, well the Spot checks wouldn't reveal any info on the picture/safe or the loose brick. Only a Search check would reveal them, and only if directed at the proper place (a Search check only covers a 5'x5' area). I don't see your point.If the Players say they Search the painting, or the wall with the painting, with a good enough Search check, the DM will say something like they note evidence that the picture is often moved (maybe scratches on the wall, a worn corner of the frame, you think something is on the wall behind the painting, etc.). They still won't find the safe until they actually move the picture. What DM would tell the Players, "You find a safe behind the picture," for just a high Spot check (or even a high Search check)?If the Players search the fireplace, with a good enough Search check, the DM will say something like they note one of the bricks seems loose and probably removable. They still won't find the dagger until they actually remove the loose brick. What DM would tell the Players they find a dagger for just a high Spot check (or even a high Search check)?Just throwing out a Search check, in general, doesn't get some kind of global information. Searching a 20'x30' room would require 4 minutes of searching just for the walls alone. Taking 20 would take 80 minutes just for the walls alone. (I think most would include the painting and fireplace as part of a wall search.) If the secret is in a piece of furniture, or the floor, or the ceiling, well, the Players must include those in their search or else they won't find anything regardless of their Search rolls. I've had Players "search the room, and everything in it" when they have plenty of time, and I'm fine with that in any edition. Do experienced DMs really still make the Players play "say the right thing"?Sounds like this: <a href="http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=170443" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=170443</a>Quasqueton</blockquote>

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