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On the Dodge Action
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<blockquote data-quote="smbakeresq" data-source="post: 7522496" data-attributes="member: 28301"><p>On another thread, a poster stated that he used the dodge action “all the time and its awesome”, I thought that using your action to dodge was a waste of an action and stated my belief that in all the years of playing I have only seen it used 4-5 times. I asked to claimant to start a dodge thread to share the awesomeness of Dodge, but I will and put my thoughts here. I could be completely wrong about the Dodge action and just missed it, if so, this is the way to find out. </p><p>First some argument parameters:</p><p></p><p></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> This is about using your Action to Dodge, not using Dodge as a bonus or free action, that’s a different story.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Dodge give attackers you can see disadvantage, and you make dexterity saving throws with advantage. If you speed drops to zero you lose these benefits.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">For the purpose of this thread, I will use Disadvantage as the equivalent of +3 to your AC, and advantage on your DEX saving throw as +3 to that saving throw.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">For the purpose of this thread I will assume that an enemy has a %50 chance to hit you or you have a %50 chance to make that DEX saving throw without figuring you using the Dodge action.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"></li> </ol><p>For the above I realize my numbers are not the actual expectations of the value of advantage or disadvantage, but I want to pick a middle ground and use something easily understandable.</p><p> </p><p>Now, let’s say you use Dodge as an Action, you give up all other actions, including all your attacks, use of non-bonus action spells, and all bonus actions that require you take an attack action to activate i.e. you can’t use your action to dodge and then take Shield Masters bonus action shove for example. I see the possible results as follows.</p><p></p><p></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">No enemy attacks you or makes you use make a DEX saving throw: You have wasted your action doing nothing.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Enemies attack you through non DEX saving throw, say Sacred Flame or Dissonant Whispers or something like that: You have wasted your action.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Enemies attack your AC or Dex:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">An Enemy will miss you or you will make your DEX saving throw against their effect %50 of the time even if you didn’t use the Dodge Action: this clearly happens as if one roll misses with disadvantage they miss or if you make one roll with advantage you succeed. Dodge had no effect.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">An Enemy attacking you will normally hit you or you will fail your DEX saving throw against their effect %50 of the time, using Dodge will decrease that chance to %35. Dodge (for this argument) is +3 or %15.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Dodge essentially changes 3 “hits” into misses.</li> </ol></li> </ol><p></p><p></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"> From 3 above, you can see that an Enemy will miss their attack %50 of the time even if you DID NOT use the Dodge Action and will succeed %35 of the time even if you DID use the Dodge Action, therefore the Dodge Action has no effect on the outcome %85 of the time.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">So %85 of the time using the Dodge action means you have just wasted your action doing nothing.</li> </ol><p></p><p>Now I get that the %85 of the time is not situational, its just covers general use. Of course, as a player you get to select when to use it, and I will assume that you as a player will use it in the best situations possible, i.e. that you have perfect tactical sense.</p><p></p><p>My thoughts:</p><p></p><p>I believe this game combat system is built on action economy, the players get better and more powerful actions then their enemies and get the benefit of better co-ordination and planning of their actions. That’s how the PCs win. Maybe I am wrong on this, let me know.</p><p> </p><p>Therefore, I think the Dodge action is a waste of an action in at least %85 of the cases, maybe more as you might not get attacked by an effect Dodge can help or have you speed reduced to zero for some reason. I don’t know the exact number, and I don’t think it could be calculated but only through stat keeping across a bunch of combats and usage of dodge could it be determined. But I don’t think I am that far off with the %85 number, let me know.</p><p></p><p>I realize you have a team with you also, if I am correct on Dodge being a waste of an Action around %85 of time I don’t see how that helps them either. IF all the Enemy decided to attack you and IF you absorbed all their actions that would have went against your team and IF all of those actions fell into the %15 bonus range that Dodge gives you, maybe that’s worth your action.</p><p></p><p>I get that there are some rare exceptions were Dodge could be useful, but they are just that, exceptions. Dodge is not an action to be used “all the time” and I don’t think anyone uses it “all the time,” but I don’t know what “all the time” means to others. “All the time” means constantly or habitually in this context, like I said at the top I have only seen it used 4-5 times over the years, but it could just be my memory failing. Let me know.</p><p></p><p>I do not think Dodge was or is ever awesome in any use of the word. I do think attacking or casting a spell to your last breath is awesome, and getting out harm’s way (like with misty step or disengage) is a much better use of an action. If you have HP to trade i.e. you won’t die from the incoming attacks or spells then Dodge to me should never be taken. If you do die well that’s what you have teammates for.</p><p></p><p>I just don’t think trading your entire Action is worth +3 to AC and +3 to DEX saving throws. I am not even sure I would do it if the bonus was +5 to both.</p><p>Have I missed something with action economy and the use of Dodge as your Action?</p><p></p><p>P.S. remember this is Dodge used as an action, not dodge used for a bonus or free action.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="smbakeresq, post: 7522496, member: 28301"] On another thread, a poster stated that he used the dodge action “all the time and its awesome”, I thought that using your action to dodge was a waste of an action and stated my belief that in all the years of playing I have only seen it used 4-5 times. I asked to claimant to start a dodge thread to share the awesomeness of Dodge, but I will and put my thoughts here. I could be completely wrong about the Dodge action and just missed it, if so, this is the way to find out. First some argument parameters: [LIST=1] [*] This is about using your Action to Dodge, not using Dodge as a bonus or free action, that’s a different story. [*]Dodge give attackers you can see disadvantage, and you make dexterity saving throws with advantage. If you speed drops to zero you lose these benefits. [*]For the purpose of this thread, I will use Disadvantage as the equivalent of +3 to your AC, and advantage on your DEX saving throw as +3 to that saving throw. [*]For the purpose of this thread I will assume that an enemy has a %50 chance to hit you or you have a %50 chance to make that DEX saving throw without figuring you using the Dodge action. [*] [/LIST] For the above I realize my numbers are not the actual expectations of the value of advantage or disadvantage, but I want to pick a middle ground and use something easily understandable. Now, let’s say you use Dodge as an Action, you give up all other actions, including all your attacks, use of non-bonus action spells, and all bonus actions that require you take an attack action to activate i.e. you can’t use your action to dodge and then take Shield Masters bonus action shove for example. I see the possible results as follows. [LIST=1] [*]No enemy attacks you or makes you use make a DEX saving throw: You have wasted your action doing nothing. [*]Enemies attack you through non DEX saving throw, say Sacred Flame or Dissonant Whispers or something like that: You have wasted your action. [*]Enemies attack your AC or Dex: [LIST=1] [*]An Enemy will miss you or you will make your DEX saving throw against their effect %50 of the time even if you didn’t use the Dodge Action: this clearly happens as if one roll misses with disadvantage they miss or if you make one roll with advantage you succeed. Dodge had no effect. [*]An Enemy attacking you will normally hit you or you will fail your DEX saving throw against their effect %50 of the time, using Dodge will decrease that chance to %35. Dodge (for this argument) is +3 or %15. [*]Dodge essentially changes 3 “hits” into misses. [/LIST] [/LIST] [LIST=1] [*] From 3 above, you can see that an Enemy will miss their attack %50 of the time even if you DID NOT use the Dodge Action and will succeed %35 of the time even if you DID use the Dodge Action, therefore the Dodge Action has no effect on the outcome %85 of the time. [*]So %85 of the time using the Dodge action means you have just wasted your action doing nothing. [/LIST] Now I get that the %85 of the time is not situational, its just covers general use. Of course, as a player you get to select when to use it, and I will assume that you as a player will use it in the best situations possible, i.e. that you have perfect tactical sense. My thoughts: I believe this game combat system is built on action economy, the players get better and more powerful actions then their enemies and get the benefit of better co-ordination and planning of their actions. That’s how the PCs win. Maybe I am wrong on this, let me know. Therefore, I think the Dodge action is a waste of an action in at least %85 of the cases, maybe more as you might not get attacked by an effect Dodge can help or have you speed reduced to zero for some reason. I don’t know the exact number, and I don’t think it could be calculated but only through stat keeping across a bunch of combats and usage of dodge could it be determined. But I don’t think I am that far off with the %85 number, let me know. I realize you have a team with you also, if I am correct on Dodge being a waste of an Action around %85 of time I don’t see how that helps them either. IF all the Enemy decided to attack you and IF you absorbed all their actions that would have went against your team and IF all of those actions fell into the %15 bonus range that Dodge gives you, maybe that’s worth your action. I get that there are some rare exceptions were Dodge could be useful, but they are just that, exceptions. Dodge is not an action to be used “all the time” and I don’t think anyone uses it “all the time,” but I don’t know what “all the time” means to others. “All the time” means constantly or habitually in this context, like I said at the top I have only seen it used 4-5 times over the years, but it could just be my memory failing. Let me know. I do not think Dodge was or is ever awesome in any use of the word. I do think attacking or casting a spell to your last breath is awesome, and getting out harm’s way (like with misty step or disengage) is a much better use of an action. If you have HP to trade i.e. you won’t die from the incoming attacks or spells then Dodge to me should never be taken. If you do die well that’s what you have teammates for. I just don’t think trading your entire Action is worth +3 to AC and +3 to DEX saving throws. I am not even sure I would do it if the bonus was +5 to both. Have I missed something with action economy and the use of Dodge as your Action? P.S. remember this is Dodge used as an action, not dodge used for a bonus or free action. [/QUOTE]
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