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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 4025045" data-attributes="member: 18280">I don't buy this even for a second.   <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /> If that were a true statement, then there wouldn't be a "no-death" or a "death-lite" camp.  In fact, the difference between "revolving door" death and real death was codified in earlier versions of the game by the loss of Consititution as well as System Shock and Resurrection Survival rolls.  When you died, you simply could not be certain that there would be a "reset".....and even if there was, you lost something.Nor would it be possible for Mallus to have non-death final consequences in his campaign, apart from booting the player....and then, of course, one could argue that wasn't a final consequence because the player might find a new game.   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" /> Losing a game of chess, IMHO, is a final consequence.  That it is still a part of another string of events that might have another final consequence (such as a chess tournament) is immaterial.  A thing can be both a final consequence (in the sense that I defined the term:  no chance of redress) and part of an ongoing process.A material loss that cannot be replaced (such as the destruction of an artifact) is a final consequence.  The loss of loved ones who cannot be simply raised is a final consequence.  Events that forever change the way important NPCs see you, for better or worse, is a final consequence.  Death, when it cannot be simply reversed, is a final consequence.That you can continue to game beyond these consequences doesn't undo them.RCP.S.:  The more I look at what constitutes a "final consequence" in this sense, the more I realize that these are precisely the things that 3.X mitigates against.  No limits to resurrection, wealth by level, buy or create new items to undo loss, etc.  4e is apparently moving even farther away from consequence.  Not surprisingly, these are also things that I have houseruled back into the game.</blockquote>

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