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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Alzrius" data-source="post: 5431611" data-attributes="member: 8461">Awesome comparison Beej! I hadn't even thought of using the various 4E stats for make a stable baseline regarding the power of Sorcerer-Kings vs. deities.I'm a little curious, does the 4E Underdark book (which is the source of the stats for Torog, I believe) say what level of god Torog is? I mean, is he a demigod, lesser god, or greater god? The other 4E god stats that I'm aware of (namely Lolth and Tiamat) are level 35 solos, which means they're not that much stronger than Torog, so I'd presume they'd all be of the same divine strata.For a quick conversion of the Sorcerer-King's power levels for my 3.X/Pathfinder brethren, this translates into the following Challenge Ratings (using U_K's <a href="http://immortalshandbook.com/freestuff24.htm" target="_blank">3rd to 4th Edition Conversions</a> table, which I believe is what Beej used also), along with parenthetical notes of my loose guestimations - based on the guidelines in Ascension and the examples in Gods and Monsters - of what their equivalent divine level would be:70 (avg. of 65-74) - Borys (equiv. lesser deity)50 (avg. of 49-50) - Dregoth (equiv. demi-deity)50 (avg. of 49-50) - Kalid-Ma (equiv. demi-deity)44 (avg. of 43-45) - Lalali-Puy (equiv. demi-deity)42 (avg. of 41-42) - Hamanu (equiv. demi-deity)34 (avg. of 33-34) - Nibenay (equiv. quasi-deity)31 (avg. of 30-32) - Abalach-Re (equiv. quasi-deity)25 - Andropinis (equiv. hero-deity)25 - Daskinor (equiv. hero-deity)21 - Tectuktitlay (equiv. hero-deity)Remember that in U_K's (v.3.5) system, CR is 2/3 of ECL.I can't speak for how 4E ranks its demon lords, arch-devils, et al in regards to actual deities, but the IH Bestiary puts the singular rulers of Hell and the Abyss (though that rulership is more theoretical for the latter plane) as being Intermediate deities (though didn't U_K say once that he thought he should have changed that to greater deities?), the strongest demon princes and arch-devils as lesser deities, etc.So in that regard, the 3.X/Pathfinder version of the Dragon is also equivalent in power to 3.X/Pathfinder Orcus (at least as the IH Bestiary would have placed him). Isn't it great when everything falls into place so neatly? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />No clue there. He was taken down by all fifteen champions (though two later turned traitor and tried to free him), and if I recall correctly they hadn't started their dragon transformations yet (or had just started), so my total shot in the dark is that Rajaat was the equivalent of an intermediate deity at the very least...and more likely the equivalent of a greater deity.Here's the 3.X/Pathfinder CR's using these alternate numbers:70 (avg. of 65-74) - Borys (equiv. lesser deity)50 (avg. of 49-50) - Dregoth (equiv. demi-deity)50 (avg. of 49-50) - Kalid-Ma (equiv. demi-deity)47 (avg. of 46-48) - Nibenay (equiv. demi-deity)44 (avg. of 43-45) - Lalali-Puy (equiv. demi-deity)42 (avg. of 41-42) - Hamanu (equiv. demi-deity)36 (avg. of 35-37) - Andropinis (equiv. quasi-deity)31 (avg. of 30-32) - Abalach-Re (equiv. quasi-deity)28 (avg. of 27-29) - Tectuktitlay (equiv. quasi-deity)25 - Daskinor (equiv. hero-deity)Personally, I like these numbers a bit better, since they make the Sorcerer-Kings more badass overall.Either way, this was fun; kudos again to you, Beej! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />EDIT: I've also added in Daskinor and Kalid-Ma to the above lists. Note that this reflects Kalid-Ma as a full-strength dragon (also altered/augmented with some sort of shadow-essence) as per the May, 2011 Dragon article <a href="http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/dun/201105eods" target="_blank">Eye on Dark Sun - Kalidnay</a>.</blockquote>

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