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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gothmog" data-source="post: 4924031" data-attributes="member: 317">Ferratus, you've got to stop being so damned reasonable.  This is the internets after all.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />And you're right about the 2e vs. 3e comparisons.  I specifically remember seeing columns in Dragon stating THAC0 was terrible and unintuitive, how all classes should use the same XP progression, that multiclassing was broken, that magic item distribution was too reliant on GM generosity, that it was inconsistent that there weren't step-by-step guidelines for caster PCs to make any magic item they wanted, that it was silly monsters and PCs didn't use the same rules, etc.For what its worth, 4e is quite a bit different from the previous edition, but I think its fair to also say it has improved on the groundwork 3.x laid.  Over the last few years 3.5 was being produced, WotC was trying new mechanics in books, taking note of lots of conversations on internet forums, seminar discussions at cons, and requests of players and fans about issues 3.x had.  Some of the more prominent ones I remember seeing discussed were:* magic item Christmas tree* multiclass spellcasters being weak (usually in the context that their spell DCs were subpar, or their casting level was negatively impacted)* rapid outscaling of attack bonuses vs. defenses, or skill bonuses vs. DCs* "rocket tag" combats that were too swingy* the dedicated healer character being marginalized as a support character* out of control buffing (see Codzilla)* non-intuitive/clunky XP system design for encounters* power disparity between casters and non-casters* grappling rules (shudder)* turn undead* wonky math at level 10+ in 3.x* "traps" in the system (weak feats, PrCs, etc)* rogues being largely useless vs. undead and constructs* lack of meaningful options in combat for non-caster classes* DM workload* lack of good computer tools for playing/running the game* overly complex monster stat blocks, which paradoxically also had little mechanical differentiation between monsters...just to name a few.  I'm sure I've left out others that have slipped my mind right now.  Many, many players complained about these very issues, and even Pathfinder has tried to correct some of these that were very disruptive (although the core of the 3.x system precludes fixing some of these).The thing is, all of those issues were addressed by 4e, and were objectively improved based on player feedback.  Thats a fact.  None of those topics listed above are an issue anymore in 4e.Now, you might not agree that some of those things needed to be changed, which is fine.  And obviously the changes in fluff are completely subjective as far as improvement goes.  But it cannot be denied that the issues listed above that many people had problems with were addressed and "fixed" in 4e.  In that regard, 4e is an evolution and improvement of the 3.x system.  I truly think the designers thought that most folks had problems with these issues, and saw their solutions to them as improvements, and were very excited about what they had come up with.  From some conversations of the folks at WotC, I don't think any of them meant any disrespect towards any of their fans, and I think many of them were shocked and dismayed that people reacted in such a volatile manner.  Yes, they used some sarcasm in their ad campaign (FWIW, I thought the video making fun of 3.5 grappling the troll was funny, although the faux French guy was annoying), and while some of their comments were said with the intent of being funny (with varying degrees of success), people viewed the upcoming 4e in different ways.  Some folks just didn't like some of the changes being made, but kept a cool head and simply disagreed with the new design direction.  Other people were opposed to any changes at all, took it as a personal attack, wanted to be upset no matter what, and grasped at any opportunity to vent their frustrations/nerdrage.  Things went out of control from there, and now we have the edition wars.4e does have its own set of issues and peculiarities, which I'm sure a 5th edition will attempt to deal with.  By no means is 4e perfect, but it DID solve a lot of issues and built-in flaws that the 3.x system had at its core.</blockquote>

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