Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imban" data-source="post: 4926809" data-attributes="member: 29206">Did Paizo ever actually advertise its grapple rules? I have to ask this because I never actually saw any of the ad copy for Pathfinder because I didn't care.If not, then who cares? With certain exceptions (countless White Wolf products, The Window, the 4e PHB on Evil characters, etc.), games usually present the rules of the game to you and do not editorialize on whether or not you're playing the game wrong. If I open a book and am presented with a block of rules for how to grapple someone, I'm going to just review them on their merits.If you say, a month in advance of my seeing the actual rules, that the rules for grappling in (this game) are terrible and you provide reasons why, I'll either agree with you or not, but your presentation of the rules will be in the context of a debate rather than "here's some rules we wrote". If you don't provide any reasons OR rules, I'll just assume you're a jerk.Like, I don't feel insulted just because Green Ronin presented new grappling rules in Mutants & Masterminds. I'm dismayed because they're worse than 3.5e's in every way. I don't feel insulted just because Paizo presented new grappling rules in Pathfinder. I'm waiting on the bestiary, but slightly saddened because an early (i.e. pre-Bestiary) math analysis seems to show that grappling people is now rather unlikely to succeed at any level. I'm not really even insulted about Wizards of the Coast's new grappling rules, but the fact that they started a debate with their ad copy - 3.5e's grappling rules SUCK and STOP THE GAME whenever they come up - and then presented a set of grappling rules that don't allow you to actually restrain someone annoys me, because I end up thinking "Well, at least 3.5e's worked, you jerks!"EDIT: For example, if I somehow wiped all memory of the pre-4e flame wars and 4e from my mind, then picked up and read the 4e PHB, I'd still think that 4e's grapple rules were lame because they omit what I feel is the actual point of grappling, but I wouldn't have the idea in my head that they were designed because 3.5e's sucked most foully, just that they apparently tried to streamline things and failed.For some version of "sucked", sure. But if you just present the rules and what you believe to be their advantages, you tend to get more of a neutral analysis of the rules. Difference between "4e is three times faster because we painted it red!" and "4e is three times faster than 3e, which was often so slow our playtesters fell asleep at the gaming table!" and all.</blockquote>

Verification