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Message: <blockquote data-quote="the Jester" data-source="post: 9256698" data-attributes="member: 1210">Oh man, this is a huuuge topic. First, let me preface this by saying that all this is in my campaign, and doesn't necessarily imply anything about anyone else's game.That said- my game includes multiple overlapping pantheons. Not all gods are the same. They don't all have the same origin, nor are they all of the same nature. Some gods are ascended mortals. How does a mortal ascend? By gathering sufficient worshipers. The power of belief thing you think is a cop-out is a very essential part of divine ascension. Some pantheons' gods are what I refer to as "numina". These are not individuals with physical forms a la Zeus, but more like the Romans viewed their gods in antiquity: they are formless embodiments of ideals. For example, there is a god who represents honesty, teamwork, and community. It is an ideal as much as an entity. Where do numina come from? Hard to say. Could be the power of belief all over again. There are some gods who are imports into my setting from a prior multiverse that has been destroyed. These aren't empowered by belief, do have physical forms, and don't rely on worshipers to exist. But how did they come to be in their old multiverse? Well... some were mortals who ascended, some were the results of a change in that world's zodiacal 'settings' that destroyed their old gods and created new ones- sort of arising from a metaphysical process. You might say that, in the old multiverse, there were positions or roles that had to be filled by cosmic necessity, so certain powers arose to fill them.There are some gods who are symbolic representations of some thing, such as the Sun (which has its own cult that venerates it directly as well). How did they arise? That question is lost to time. But without followers, such a god's power wanes, and it might eventually die, leaving a petrified shell on the Astral Plane.There are some gods who are ultra-powerful entities that claim godhood, build up a priesthood, and then become their own self-fulfilling prophecy. Things like demon princes, fey lords, or arch-devils are normally able to empower warlocks through pacts, but if they get enough spiritual oomph behind them, they can also create clerics and paladins. Some can do this in my game, but it requires a flow of manna from followers and their acts or acts that align with the creature's portfolio to do so.I think discarding the idea of the power of belief in creating, sustaining, and strengthening or weakening deities is fine, if that's what you want; the notion that there was/were a/some creator deities that predate believers is fine. But I prefer things a little more ambiguous, with open questions, and a system that allows for the possibility of divine ascension. If the gods predate mortals, you're very possibly closing that off.</blockquote>

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