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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Todd Roybark" data-source="post: 7915791" data-attributes="member: 6920677">Well yeah, especially as the Sorcerer stole the toys. <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="😘" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f618.png" title="Face blowing a kiss    :kissing_heart:" data-shortname=":kissing_heart:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" />.  If you steal my car, and I see you driving said car around town, I’m going to be pissed.  Telling me to play with the “toys” you have not stolen yet and ‘be happy’ is not the best salve. <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="😎" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" title="Smiling face with sunglasses    :sunglasses:" data-shortname=":sunglasses:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" />The 5e Sorc, stole metamagic, from everyone.Again, if the ability to use bows and crossbows was taken from all classes and given to an Archer class, people would be outraged.A Wizard’s spellbook is as much a bane then a boon.  The book can be stolen, destroyed, scry’d upon etc.  All the book does is take that vaunted ‘Wizard Spell list’ everyone blathers about, and render it moot, the real Wizard spell list is what is in your book.A Wizard’s Ritual Magic is easily replicated by the Ritual Magic feat or a Warlock pact of the book.  Indeed the Feat and Warlock Pact are arguably better than a Wiz’s Ritual Magic, as the former are based off Character level, not class level.At the point of play Metamagic allows the Sorcerer to be a better caster than almost all other casters casting the same spell.  A 3 level dip into the Sorcerer class, has to at least be considered by any full spellcaster that has a modicum of powergamer residing in their mind.So is all the Sorcerer love more about ‘wanting to play an X-man’ or being more powerful with Metamagic?If WOTC announced the Sorcerer class was going to be retired, unless  Metamagic was removed from the class, and replaced with say all the ‘toys’  the Wiz has, that you referenced earlier, and let us assume for the benefit of the thought experiment, that these replacement ‘toys’  are a perfect fit thematically for the Sorcerer, do you take the change?Moonsong, might...Moonsong’s ardent advocacy of the Sorcerer seems to be not primarily mechanically driven.  I am not so sure about others though...✌</blockquote>

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