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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 7915844" data-attributes="member: 93670">[USER=6689464]@MoonSong[/USER] It's possible to get lost in a concept & champion a munchkinized implementation without stepping back to look outside the tunnel of a concept, the everything a wizard does but just born with it concept is just that & it's good that you seem to have realized it.You keep bringing up ritual magic like it's far more than it is.  [USER=6920677]@Todd Roybark[/USER]  nicely pointed out the nonexclusive to wizard aspect with two of the actually improved versions.  There's a critical point you are missing unaware of or just ignoring though & I brought it up earlier.  Flatly there are not enough meaningful ritual spells to build a character or even a concept around & a wizard is still required to take the "right spells" or face the same useless feeling as a sorcerer who does not take them.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1st: Comprehend Magic, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Floating Disk, Identify, Illusory Script.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">2nd: Gentle repose, Magic Mouth, Skywrite</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">3rd: Feign Death, Tiny Hut, Phantom Steed, Water Breathing</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">4th: Zero 4th level ritual spells on the Wizard list</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5th:  Contact Other Plane, Telepathic Bond</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">6th: Instant Summons</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">7th Zero 7th level ritual spells on the Wizard list</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">8th: Zero 8th level ritual spells on the Wizard list</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">9th: Zero 9th level ritual spells on the Wizard list</li> </ul>Sure there are a couple sometimes useful spells there, but as a whole they are incomplete and far from sufficient to build anything around.  Take out Tiny hut & detect magic the whole thing.Multiple settings differentiate magic along lines of things like draconic/demonic/infernal/daelkyr/etc magic, but sorcerer stole & copied so much from wizard that it's difficult for wizard to have truly viscerally different archtypes because all that's left is a spellbook and sorcerer has archtypes that are already everything wizard plus most everything of this theme so any attempt to make a wizard archtype for them would amount to but copy $abilities from $sorcererArchtype.[USER=5142]@Aldarc[/USER] funny you'd bring up mage armor given how dragon sorcerer & more than one sorcerer UA has base 13+dex ac without needing to cast mage armor.   You say that you've read the overlap yet keep questioning if there is overlap and implying that wizard has massive amounts of wizard specific stuff  so lets chase this rabbit hole you seem so desperate to dive into... What are these toys you were talking about when you said  "The wizard gets more toys than the sorcerer" Be specific & try to limit yourself to the few core class things that wizard has but sorcerer does not.. if you say "ritual spells" be specific about which spells or how a wizard can build a distinct theme around them with more depth than "guy who casts tiny hut for the scorlock".  The fact that sorcerer can choose nearly all of the skills wizards can choose plus some extra social skills and has a virtually identical spell list.  Yes in 3.5 the two had the same spell list, but in 3.5 sorcerer had a casting mechanic that was different from every other spellcaster  and Intelligence as a stat as well as int based skills were far more valuable making them play out differently at the table.</blockquote>

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