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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7915920" data-attributes="member: 6801228">And this is ultimately the main problem. The perfect mechanics for sorcerers would be a completely freeform style of magic that DnD with its rigid system just cannot easily create. Thematically they should be able to conjure fire to create Fireball, Fire Wall, Flame Bolt, Flame Strike, Flame Blade, Flaming Sphere, Control Flames, Bonfire, Pyrotechnics, Aganazzer's Scorcher, Heat Metal Scorching Ray, Investiture of Flame, ect ect ect. And change the shape, duration, and size of all of those spells.Because to the sorcerer they are doing one thing, and the rest is just a matter of how they need it to work this time.But, this is far too powerful (one ability giving every fire spell and allowing you to alter every fire spell, yeah right) and too free form to work within the paradigm of DnD magic. So, we need to look at the best 2nd 3rd or even 4th set of rules and abilities to get closer to where they should be in a way that works with the game.Wow, immediately into the defensive mode. Okay, let's try and respond calmly. The "rat's ass" was because you said Your point there seems to be "They were just too lazy to write a better story", but X-Men became wildly popular. Why? Because of two reasons. 1) They inadvertently stumbled into a powerful story in the division between how people are born and the changes people can suddenly seem to go through that reshape their entire lives and 2) Because by avoiding the story of 'why does this person teleport' they instead focused on "what do they do with this power". It wasn't that they didn't want to create a story, it was that the story wasn't about the how's of the power, but how the power shaped the people.For an example, I loved that 90's cartoon, and I remember the first episode where Jubilee is essentially disowned by her parents and hunted by giant monsters for (from her perspective) no reason. She hasn't done anything, why is she being punished. But that story doesn't work if she needs to go out and find a teacher, or if she needs to devote years to research, because then she has dedication. She is seeking this power at the expense of other things. She made a choice, and while she may no like it, it was still a choice. But, as a mutant, she doesn't have a choice, she never decided to pursue power and gain all these enemies. And that is a story that the Sorcerer can have, and it is a powerful one. As shown by the fact that X-Men was built on these types of stories, and is wildly popular. Take a few deep breaths please, because you missed the point, and your anger is not helping me to explain it.See, you are forgetting this line from the Sorcerer description in the PHB "Sorcerers carry a magical birthright conferred upon them by an exotic bloodline, some otherworldly influence, or exposure to unknown cosmic forces. "What did Bruce Banner do to gain his powers? He got hit by a blast of cosmic forces and it fundamentally altered him. He didn't beseech a powerful entity. He didn't study and train to master these powers. He didn't devote himself to a cause. He got blasted by a power he didn't fully understand and it changed him. That is a sorcerer origin. I wasn't asking "Which class would you make this character with" I was talking about how they originate. The Hulk's origins are about an accident and an exposure to power. He didn't pray to the Gamma Gods to grant him strength, like a cleric would, he didn't unlock the fundamental nature of gamma radiation and use that knowledge to change himself. He got a face full of power, and it changed him in ways he didn't expect and doesn't fully understand. Since we are talking about stories and which ones are interesting, seeing the parallels in stories that are considered classic is a good thing. So... is your problem just with handwaving? Is that what all this anger and frustration is coming from? I mean you are comparing the Bruce Banner to a cleric who worships a God and a Spider-Man to a Wizard who chooses to study magic. But, they both are far more comparable to a sorcerous origin. They didn't choose this, they didn't want this, but it happened anyways. A Storm Sorcerer could be struck by lightning during a magically signifgant event and undergo dramatic changes within their body and soul. How is that different than a radioactive spider bite? I mean, I'm not understanding what you see that is so different unless you think all Sorcerer players just have "I dunno man, I'm just magical" written on their backstory. No sorcerer player I have ever seen has done that. Heck, most of them go with the magical accident story instead of the dragon blood parentage.Isn't it though? Doctor Strange spends years studying the arts of magic, inheriting a title and burden of protecting the entire Earth. Do you think he needs to have that defining moment of realizing he needs to be responsible for his own power? Isn't the first lesson of almost all martial arts Know when to Fight and when to not? The teeth in the saying comes from misusing that power and facing personal tragedy. Uncle Ben died because Spider-Man didn't act when he could have. If Spider-Man had sought out his powers from the Spider God Anasi for a higher purpose... none of his origin would have happened. He wouldn't have become a TV star to make money, he wouldn't have let the robber go when he was cheated, the entire premise of the origin hinges on the fact that Peter doesn't feel like he owes anyone anything, because this power was just thrust on him and he has no responsibility in how he uses it. Until it personally bites him for not using it. But if you are taught, if you seek power, then you seek power with a goal in mind. and if you are seeking your own goals, that is the story. The story can't be with how you deal with that power, you got what you wanted, Iron Man can't get upset that he is Iron Man, he chose to build the suit, chose to get in it, and chose to use it. Spider-Man didn't choose to gain his powers, and every time he tries to stop being spider-man, he has to use his powers to save his loved ones. Through no fault of his own, but through mere chance.He doesn't realize he can use Force powers? If he doesn't realize that means he physically could, he just didn't know how. So, he was born with his powers. So... Sorcerer. I'm not saying their needs to be a "Force God", that's not the point of the cleric. The point of a cleric is power through dedication and faith. But, Jedi are born Force Sensitive and capable of utilizing it. You can't be a Jedi if you aren't born special.Also [USER=93670]@tetrasodium[/USER] since I had it up I wanted to go ahead and post the Sorcerer's actual proficiency table. Could you please stop reposting the Warlock one? It might be because this new format has me rereading posts when they are new and I'm behind, but it looks like this was addressed a few times already and it does not lend to your point to be consistently wrong.ProficienciesArmor: NoneWeapons: Daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbowsTools: NoneSaving Throws: Constitution, CharismaSkills: Choose two from Arcana, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Persuasion, and Religion</blockquote>

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