Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 7917116" data-attributes="member: 93670">There is no debate on the objective fact that nearly all of the wizard's spell list is duplicated on the sorcerer list.  Rather than getting lost on an endless subjective debate over if a wizard should be a glass cannon, battlefield control, batman, etc & to what degrees...  How about instead can you compile a list of top shelf spells in the much smaller handful of wizard specific spells not shared by sorcerer in the section of the spell list copied to sorcerer?   There are only a handful of wizard spells  each level that are not copied to the sorcerer list, it should be easy for some of the folks who keep pointing at the larger spell list to name the top shelf spells unique to wizards, oddly there doesn't seem to be much interest in doing so even though I've asked quite a few times in the threadIt's not blaming the sorcerer to admit that one of the few things wizards could get from wizard bonus feats were given to sorcerers along with the vast majority of the wizard spell list and nothing was added to the core wizard chassis to make up for the removal of wizard bonus feats & how the int mod affected other parts of character creation because it leaves a giant void ripe for toe stomping in the wizard class.  I'm not saying that sorcerer's should be nerfed or anything, just that they should have finished the wizard.  With  Fighter they realized those bonus feats at 1,2 , 4 6, 8, 10, 12, 14,16,18, & 20 were a critical component of the class so gave them some bonus feats after replacing some of them with core class features like second wind, action surge, fighting styles, indomidable, & so on... Problems came though because when it came to wizard they dropped the bonus feats without replacements & failed to replace the missing core class or int mod mechanics.Yes I agree that ritual casting could have been a great thing that would really make a wizard shine in a role of it's own.. but they stopped when the cocktail napkin was full instead of fleshing it out with something to build a character around.  We wouldn't even be discussing this & the thread probably never would have started if a wizard could mostly take a bunch of top shelf ritual spells not hamstrung by concentration that really made the party sit up & take notice regularly.  Take out tiny hut & detect magic & the whole concept of ritual wizard spells pretty much falls in with the various ribbons [USER=7015332]@PsyzhranV2[/USER]   I'm not sure how you took away that impression from my post but whatever.  There was talk earlier where someone suggested that the sorcerer should have looked more like the warlock & warlock different along with references to how the playtest had a version that played up the magical bloodline in ways that made it really lean into the magical creature theme in ways other than just "like a wizard but some extra toys & charisma".  If your really interested in seeing how a sorcerer could have looked, you might want to go back & read or skim some of the posts from people discussing those things.[USER=93670]@tetrasodium[/USER]  The dragon bloodline subclass for the sorcerer is just the Dragon Disciple PrC from 3e. The wizard had its core mechanics expanded upon, same with the cleric (domains). What was the sorcerer's core mechanic from 3e? Spontaneous casting. But that's also part of the bard, and the bard gets other things. All classes in 5e can "cast spontaneously", stealing the sorcerer's schtick, only they can change their "spells known" every time they wake up from an 8 hour rest. Except the ranger, but they have more going for them than the sorcerer. If not for the metamagic, sorcerers would have practically no use for sorcery points except to make more spell slots. Very few of their subclass features use sorcery points. Take away metamagic, you may as well just make those points into the extra spell slots.Sorcerer, as it stands now in 5e, NEEDS metamagic, or else it really wouldn't have any use to exist with the wizard, warlock, and bard around. Oh, and now also the artificer.</blockquote>I thought about the draconic bloodline, but it bears little resemblance to the 5e draconic bloodline.   Races of the dragon 1.7 has the bloodline, but it bears little resemblance to the 5e sorcerer archtype... now some of the feats like those on page 104/105 are more than just similar.As to your sorcerer's need metamagic point... I'm not sure why you & PsyzhranV2 seem to think that I'm saying that sorcerer should have metamagic removed by pointing out that it was something traditionally associated with various wizard builds because of those bonus feats, the fact that nothing was added for the bonus feat loss, or the fact that they used one of the few things remaining in the core wizard class's toolbox (school specialization) as fodder for archtypes is a morass of problematic considering so much of the spell list is copied to sorcerer[/QUOTE]

Verification