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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)
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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 7917287" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>I'm not the one who brought up the larger spell list, in fact I pointed out that too much of it is shared and listed the spells, however again you do your best to avoid details that cause so much of your argument to crumble. A while back Wotc/dndbeyond <a href="https://dndbeyond.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360040650674-Dev-Update-12-19-2019" target="_blank">released some statistics</a> on levels of actual characters that get played. 93 certainly sounds like a massive & impressive number.... except</p><p>[ATTACH=full]118347[/ATTACH]</p><p><a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/on-whether-sorcerers-and-wizards-should-be-merged-or-not-they-shouldnt.670175/post-7914247" target="_blank">earlier</a> I covered the spells level 1-5 that wizard alone has & noted that most campaigns end by then so continuing on 6th-9th was silly, but again you are yammering on that number across all levels. Here are the35 spells unique to wizard from levels 6-9. That amounts to character level 11 to 20...or.... nine percent of all campaigns.. but 16 of those spells will only be seen by two percent of campaigns with the remaining 19 only seen by six percent of campaigns. Your argument about 93 spells unique to wizard holds roughly the same weight as people who point at the moon druid level 20 capstone & cry OP.</p><p></p><p>While you & a few others froth at the mouth about things like the number 93 when most are only seen in a tiny fraction of games, you ignore the fact that even among the levels where <em><u>seventy percent of games</u></em> play in there is well... <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/on-whether-sorcerers-and-wizards-should-be-merged-or-not-they-shouldnt.670175/post-7917217" target="_blank">not much</a> across those 28 spells. The first person in this thread named off <em>five </em>spells as being "top couple tier" out of those 93 spells you keep shouting about....</p><p></p><p>do you want to try again but this time make an argument rooted in parts of the game relevant to something more like a significant percentage of campaigns? If that's too difficult maybe even limit yourself to arguments that are relevant to more than a tiny fraction of them?</p><p></p><p>edit: here are 6-9th level spells unique to wizard. There are some nice ones sure, but only nine percent of campaigns will ever even get to the 6th level spells & it drops fast the percent who will continue</p><p>9th level</p><p>Astral Projection, Foresight, Imprisonment, Prismatic Wall, Shape Change, True Polymorph</p><p>Weird</p><p>8th Level</p><p>Antimagic Field, Antipathy/Sympathy, Clone, Control Weather, Demiplane, Feeblemind, Maze, Mindblank, Power Word Stun, Telepathy, Trap the Soul</p><p>7th Level</p><p>Force Cage, Mirage Arcane, Magnificent Mansion, Mordenkainen's Sword, Project Image, Sequester, Simulacrum, Symbol</p><p>6th Level</p><p>Contingency, Create Undead, Instant Summons, Flesh to Stone, Guards & wards, Magic Jar, Freezing Sphere, Irresistable Dance, Programmed Illusion</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 7917287, member: 93670"] I'm not the one who brought up the larger spell list, in fact I pointed out that too much of it is shared and listed the spells, however again you do your best to avoid details that cause so much of your argument to crumble. A while back Wotc/dndbeyond [URL='https://dndbeyond.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360040650674-Dev-Update-12-19-2019']released some statistics[/URL] on levels of actual characters that get played. 93 certainly sounds like a massive & impressive number.... except [ATTACH type="full" alt="1581559032240.png"]118347[/ATTACH] [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/on-whether-sorcerers-and-wizards-should-be-merged-or-not-they-shouldnt.670175/post-7914247']earlier[/URL] I covered the spells level 1-5 that wizard alone has & noted that most campaigns end by then so continuing on 6th-9th was silly, but again you are yammering on that number across all levels. Here are the35 spells unique to wizard from levels 6-9. That amounts to character level 11 to 20...or.... nine percent of all campaigns.. but 16 of those spells will only be seen by two percent of campaigns with the remaining 19 only seen by six percent of campaigns. Your argument about 93 spells unique to wizard holds roughly the same weight as people who point at the moon druid level 20 capstone & cry OP. While you & a few others froth at the mouth about things like the number 93 when most are only seen in a tiny fraction of games, you ignore the fact that even among the levels where [I][U]seventy percent of games[/U][/I] play in there is well... [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/on-whether-sorcerers-and-wizards-should-be-merged-or-not-they-shouldnt.670175/post-7917217']not much[/URL] across those 28 spells. The first person in this thread named off [I]five [/I]spells as being "top couple tier" out of those 93 spells you keep shouting about.... do you want to try again but this time make an argument rooted in parts of the game relevant to something more like a significant percentage of campaigns? If that's too difficult maybe even limit yourself to arguments that are relevant to more than a tiny fraction of them? edit: here are 6-9th level spells unique to wizard. There are some nice ones sure, but only nine percent of campaigns will ever even get to the 6th level spells & it drops fast the percent who will continue 9th level Astral Projection, Foresight, Imprisonment, Prismatic Wall, Shape Change, True Polymorph Weird 8th Level Antimagic Field, Antipathy/Sympathy, Clone, Control Weather, Demiplane, Feeblemind, Maze, Mindblank, Power Word Stun, Telepathy, Trap the Soul 7th Level Force Cage, Mirage Arcane, Magnificent Mansion, Mordenkainen's Sword, Project Image, Sequester, Simulacrum, Symbol 6th Level Contingency, Create Undead, Instant Summons, Flesh to Stone, Guards & wards, Magic Jar, Freezing Sphere, Irresistable Dance, Programmed Illusion [/QUOTE]
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