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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Todd Roybark" data-source="post: 7917409" data-attributes="member: 6920677">Long Post-Responses to Multiple pointsWow..so much for the peaceful detente that happened around page 14. <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="😀" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" title="Grinning face    :grinning:" data-shortname=":grinning:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" />A sorcerer is an Artisanal caster, with a non algorithmically selected set of themed spells.The Wizard is the big box store of spells.The quote  of mine that Moonsong used at the very beginning of this thread was in direct response to the idea of increasing the Sorcerers’ spell list, and spells known.(& to be honest I allow a 1st level Sorcerer to have 3 spells known instead of 2)As Undrave, so rightfully stated earlier, the big spell list  is the 5e Wizards shtick with little else in the class to represent flavor or personality.So Increasing the Sorcerer spell list, Increasing Sorcerer spells known, Increasing the versatility of Font of Magic to allow for cool effects like THP, and essentially bonus spells.....all of these together, is a bridge too far for me, and makes the Sorcerer supreme, ( and not like Dr. Strange).If the Sorcerer gets all of the above, then the Wizard should get something big for the sake of equality, like the ability to Concentrate on two spells at a time.High Intelligence used to be useful, either in learning extra languages ( alleviating the need  to take Comp Lang in 1e),  or in 3e, high INT gave skill points. 5e gives you nothing for a High INT.  If the wizard is supposed to be educated “Only a Scholar” as FrogReaver insists, shouldn’t that education be mechanically represented?  If the Wizard spell list length is the way 5e mechanically represents “the scholar”...then no spell list increase for the Sorc is warranted, without some other compensation for the Wiz.As it stands now, I personally think the Wizard should have 3 Skill Points, automatic proficiency in the near useless Calligraphy tool, and the ability to get Expertise in Arcana.An 8 INT Cleric of Knowledge with 1 level of Ranger with Favored Enemy Devils can out sage any Wizard in Descent to Avernus thru Expertise and Advantage on INT/WIS checks against Devils.CHA is a way better stat than INT in 5e.  Every Wizard I have seen in 5e has Charm Person selected.  A sorcerer with their high CHA does not need the spell.  Same could be said for the Disguise Self spell, especially if Prof. w/ the Disguise kit is had.  A CHA (Intimidate) check can replicate, ( in limited fashion), one of the Fear spells etc.  The value of CHA ability checks to bypass the need to use spells is not being properly evaluated in this thread. (My points excepted, of course <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="😉" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" title="Winking face    :wink:" data-shortname=":wink:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" />).As for what the Wizard class has lost- here are just some of things not mentioned yet:1- Wizards used to be the only class with 8th or 9th level spells.2 - Wizards used to have 2 Ninth level spell slots at Capstone Levels.3- The Origins of Metamagic goes back to 1e through the Extension line of M/U spells.Metamagic spells in 2e were Wizard spells, with limited   access granted to some cool, but odd and not commonly used Priestly Spheres.As has been pointed out Metamagic was not the Sorcerer shtick in 3e. Suddenly, now in 5e,  Metamagic is the best way to represent the soul of the class in 5e. Yet, at the creation of the Sorcerer class, metamagic was intentionally designed to be a SUBPAR option for the Sorc.  (Predicted response from others: Now everyone is a spontaneous caster...yada, yada <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="👼" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f47c.png" title="Baby angel    :angel:" data-shortname=":angel:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" />)4- The Paradigm shift that has happened in imagination due to the sorcerer class being ‘split’ from the wizard.  For proof of this:The fictional character Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, self described in the book series as a wizard, is spec’d  in D&D mechanics as a Sorcerer, by appreciative fans of the books in this thread.<img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="🎤" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f3a4.png" title="Microphone    :microphone:" data-shortname=":microphone:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" />+ Drop.</blockquote>

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