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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7917910" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I could see that, but I feel like there is too much pressure on sorcery points right now, building new abilities that will draw upon that pool might be too much. But I can see the idea that people will instead want the spells sorcerers have if we give them decent options.So, built a wizard with those unique spells a while back. You either missed it or ignored it. And, I'm not sure why you keep insisting that Warlocks and Sorcerers stole everything from the wizard. Were metamagic feats exclusive to wizards back in the day? I thought any spellcaster could take them. In  fact, other than scribing scrolls (which anyone in 5e can do) what exactly did Wizards get that sorcerer's stole from them? You keep saying it, but you don't give us any evidence to support it, just repeating yourself like that in itself is evidence.Edit: Seems that was addressed and you responded hereSo.... "Everyone" stole Familiars and Wizard's aren't getting extra feats, which many used to get abilities that are now invocations and metamagic. But, those feats were never exclusive, wizard's just had more feats to use, so they got to take the magic feats everyone wanted more...So... Sorcerers "stole" the feature that everyone had but wizard's got to use more because wizards were more special than everyone else? That is a rather poor argument for them "Stealing" from wizards when it seems wizards just stopped getting a buff above what every other caster had.Except that you didn't tell us "what was solely a wizard only tool" you told us that wizards used to get four more feats than other spellcasters, and so they were able to take more of the tools that everyone could use. Wizard's have lost nothing that was exclusively theirsWait, so now we are adding core mechanics of how ability scores worked to the things that the sorcerer stole from the Wizard? Man, I didn't realize that going from skill ranks to proficiency was because of the sorcerer. I thought that was a fundamental change in the game state, not something defined by a single class. Silly me.See, those hand-me downs my parents force my brother to wear prove he stole from my closet. Just like back in 3.5 when he didn't even get his own closet and they just told him he could wear my clothes if he wanted to wear anything. Yes, Sorcerers and Wizards share spells. That isn't the sorcerer stealing from the wizard. That is the sorcerer being told to act like a wizard, whether they want to or not. Since you love talking about 3.5 and how terrible it is for the Wizards to lose all their stuff, let us take a moment to look at the 3.5 sorcerer. Just for giggles.According to your own picture you posted (it's in one of the sections I quoted from you) they recieved no class features except for Finding Familiars. Which wizards also got, and has now become a spell that (in your own words) "anyone can take with a feat). The 3.5 Sorcerer spell list? It didn't exist, they just used the Wizard spell list. It wasn't even listed seperately, it was the Sorcerer/Wizard list. The extra weapons and armor they recieved? Gone. They get the exact same armor and weapons as a wizard does now. Their HD being larger (I believe that was true for 3.5)? Gone. And, spontaneous casting. The ability to not lock a spell into a specific slot. You could simply cast magic missile with any slot instead of saying that you would cast two of them for this day. Given to every caster in the entire game. Including the wizard. But please, let us continue to discuss ad nauseam all the things that wizards lost to the sorcerer. I mean, the sorcerer now has a seperate spell list, and they got the metamagic. Lost everything unique they ever had in 3.5, gained some other things to compensate.Didn't I do something like this way back when, and you completely ignored it? Looks like I did. So, we have successfully named some "top tier" spells that the sorcerer cannot cast. We did it like, 100 posts ago, but hey, sometimes you miss things. So. Point made, now what do you say?Another point that I don't think you've ever actually, like, proven or supported in any way. How are Ritual spells "unfinished"?</blockquote>

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