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Once More, With Feeling
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 7649508" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p><strong>Finding the Fun</strong></p><p></p><p>Eleka Nahmen Nahmen. Eleka Nahmen Nahmen.</p><p></p><p>Sorry, wrong Fiero...</p><p></p><p>Different people have fun in different ways - and this is obvious. I've currently got a group with this tension - and right now I'm running the Leverage RPG for them. This works well - it's very much story and humour centric, but at the core of the game are puzzles. Notably the one for the mastermind: "My opponent has two traits at d12 and two at d4. How can I make him roll the 2d4 against my 2d10 in the final showdown, not the 2d12?" The mastermind is, of course, the most fiero-centric of my players. The more satisfaction-centred players have the thief and the grifter which provide far less required strategy, and far more looking cool and telling the story plotted by a mixture of the mastermind and myself.</p><p></p><p>As for 4e, one of the reasons I favour it is that, to me, it's amongst other things more laden with fiero than just about any edition outside White Plume Mountain or Tomb of Horrors. This is because tactical combat is all about fiero. (4e combat is also about satisfaction, see the links being discussed between powers and encouraging in character behaviours). In 4e, with a competent DM, almost every combat is a puzzle to be solved as well as a story.</p><p></p><p>To expand on this, there are six monster roles in 4e (although not quite the normally given six). Four of the six are inherently puzzle roles that if allowed to do their thing get really nasty.</p><p></p><p>Brute: Melee damage: high, ranged damage: None-low. Strong defences vs NADs, weak vs weapons.</p><p>Soldier: Melee damage: Medium, ranged damage: Low. Strong defences vs weapons. Function: anti-defenders, prevent the PCs doing their thing.</p><p>Skirmisher (vanilla): Melee and ranged damage: Medium.</p><p>Skirmisher (tactical): Melee and ranged damage low unless a condition is triggered when it becomes high. Defences: Medium</p><p>Artillery (including controllers): Melee damage: Low, ranged damage: High (or medium with added obnoxiousness). Defences: Weak vs weapons.</p><p>Lurkers: Melee damage: Extreme. Only attacking or vulnerable one round in two but a soft target when you can reach them.</p><p></p><p>Every single monster role except the vanilla skirmisher is an inherent puzzle piece - they are only about half as threatening when you do not allow them to play their game as when they get a chance to do so, and monsters should be used as "combined arms" most of the time to enable them to try to play their game. And add some interesting terrain and you have a nice fiero set-up in the same way as a chess problem right in front of you. This happens in such a way that fiero and satisfaction do not cut across each other (think back to DL1 - that was aimed at pure satisfaction at the expense of fiero when Gygaxian D&D is about almost pure fiero).</p><p></p><p>Of course once again 4e's labelling doesn't point this out...</p><p></p><p>So the feelings are where you find them and where you see them.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 7649508, member: 87792"] [B]Finding the Fun[/B] Eleka Nahmen Nahmen. Eleka Nahmen Nahmen. Sorry, wrong Fiero... Different people have fun in different ways - and this is obvious. I've currently got a group with this tension - and right now I'm running the Leverage RPG for them. This works well - it's very much story and humour centric, but at the core of the game are puzzles. Notably the one for the mastermind: "My opponent has two traits at d12 and two at d4. How can I make him roll the 2d4 against my 2d10 in the final showdown, not the 2d12?" The mastermind is, of course, the most fiero-centric of my players. The more satisfaction-centred players have the thief and the grifter which provide far less required strategy, and far more looking cool and telling the story plotted by a mixture of the mastermind and myself. As for 4e, one of the reasons I favour it is that, to me, it's amongst other things more laden with fiero than just about any edition outside White Plume Mountain or Tomb of Horrors. This is because tactical combat is all about fiero. (4e combat is also about satisfaction, see the links being discussed between powers and encouraging in character behaviours). In 4e, with a competent DM, almost every combat is a puzzle to be solved as well as a story. To expand on this, there are six monster roles in 4e (although not quite the normally given six). Four of the six are inherently puzzle roles that if allowed to do their thing get really nasty. Brute: Melee damage: high, ranged damage: None-low. Strong defences vs NADs, weak vs weapons. Soldier: Melee damage: Medium, ranged damage: Low. Strong defences vs weapons. Function: anti-defenders, prevent the PCs doing their thing. Skirmisher (vanilla): Melee and ranged damage: Medium. Skirmisher (tactical): Melee and ranged damage low unless a condition is triggered when it becomes high. Defences: Medium Artillery (including controllers): Melee damage: Low, ranged damage: High (or medium with added obnoxiousness). Defences: Weak vs weapons. Lurkers: Melee damage: Extreme. Only attacking or vulnerable one round in two but a soft target when you can reach them. Every single monster role except the vanilla skirmisher is an inherent puzzle piece - they are only about half as threatening when you do not allow them to play their game as when they get a chance to do so, and monsters should be used as "combined arms" most of the time to enable them to try to play their game. And add some interesting terrain and you have a nice fiero set-up in the same way as a chess problem right in front of you. This happens in such a way that fiero and satisfaction do not cut across each other (think back to DL1 - that was aimed at pure satisfaction at the expense of fiero when Gygaxian D&D is about almost pure fiero). Of course once again 4e's labelling doesn't point this out... So the feelings are where you find them and where you see them. [/QUOTE]
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