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Once you go C&C, you never go back
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<blockquote data-quote="Scurvy_Platypus" data-source="post: 3915858" data-attributes="member: 43283"><p>No, it's a lot more along the lines of:</p><p>"Every person I know of that dresses up and acts like a goth is into vampires and being angsty. I don't want people to think I'm into vampires since I hate 'em, and my life is fine, so I'm not going to dress and act like a goth."</p><p></p><p>I know you're still not going to get the logic, but let me try explaining it this way...</p><p></p><p>For some people (like myself), a strong component of the game is the social aspect. I want something I'm going to be able to play with other people. If every person that I find that talks about the game and is interested in the game, is someone that I don't like, or wouldn't want to spend time with, I'm not going to buy the game.</p><p></p><p>That doesn't mean that every single person that exists and likes the game is a complete jerk. It means that the majority of people are ones I don't feel like dealing with, and it's not worth my time to sort through all the jerks in the _hope_ that I'll get lucky and find cool people.</p><p></p><p>Gamers are a factional lot. The games that they like (or dislike) are one easy way that people split themselves into factions. Heck, here you've got ENWorld which is basically for the D&D (3E, soon to be 4E) faction. Dragonsfoot deals pretty much with older D&D.</p><p></p><p>You'll find people within each faction that are nice or not, but each group does have an overall "tone" to their conversations.</p><p></p><p>Instead of refusing to play D&D/d20 because I really detest the complexity, I look and see if I'd even like playing with the people first. If the answer is "Yes", then I start to worry about whether there's a rules-lighter crowd I can fall in with, or if I could get others that'd be willing to go with something lighter.</p><p></p><p>Disliking a game because of the people that act as the face of it, is no more rational or irrational than liking or disliking a game for its level of complexity. After all, you can always add more rules to it or remove rules, just like you can try and find someone nice to represent a game that seems to be mainly represented by people you don't like.</p><p></p><p>And yet people are playing C&C at least in part because they dislike rule complexity.</p><p></p><p>Or how about this one... try getting most gamers to play an rpg that doesn't use dice. The vast majority of them wouldn't do it. Of those that tried, a smaller portion would actually enjoy the experience. Most gamers like to roll their dice. There's no real "rational" reason for refusing to play diceless games, it's just the line they draw for themselves.</p><p></p><p>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p><p></p><p>And just so I'm at least slightly relevant to the topic, I'll reiterate my position:</p><p></p><p>I _really_ like C&C's approach to stuff. It's simple: Make an Attribute check to see if you succeed. If your class is skilled at the task, add your level to your dice roll. Beat the threshold and you succeed.</p><p></p><p>That's awesome, and it basically covers how C&C handles most of the stuff. The subsystems of the game are kept to a minimum, allowing things to speed up even more.</p><p></p><p>I like that the system strips down so far, and then I can plug in individual bits to add complexity to those elements that I think need more complexity, or that I'd like to focus on.</p><p></p><p>The flaw in C&C stictly speaking in system terms (and my own personal opinion) is that many people these days are not comfortable with the rules of the game being something that's either negotiated by the group, or left in the hands of the GM. People _like_ the rules being established by a some other person entirely, and additionally like the fact that the rules "apply" to the GM as well as the players. It provides a common baseline for a conversation about the game to happen.</p><p></p><p>For example, D&D's Difficulty Class thingy. A lot of the DC checks of D&D are "hardcoded"... if you make over DC of X, then you get result of Y. Like Open Lock. An Average lock is a DC of 25. I might not know what the particular difficulty of any specific lock is that my character tries to open, but I _know_ that if I can consistently make over a DC of 25, my character should be able to consistently get into some place that has Average locks. If I'm told in game that the place we're going to try and break into is well secured, I can guess it's going to have better than average locks, and even be able to do a basic assessment of just what my character is capable of.</p><p></p><p>I also know that the GM (generally speaking) isn't going to be giving me some insane number to beat for an average test. If it's an average lock, and he tells me I have to beat a DC of 45, I know there's something strange going on. It might be something special about that particular situation, or it could be the GM trying to screw with me. Over time, I can figure out if it's the GM screwing with me or not.</p><p></p><p>Without a common baseline in rules, people can become annoyed and upset because they expected one thing, and the GM expected something else. In other words, the rules are the "language" of the game and how things get done.</p><p></p><p>Having said that, I personally prefer rules-lighter systems. I don't mind negotiating the rules with the group. Or "making my own language" if you want to stick with that metaphor. As long as everyone else is fine with it, everything is good.</p><p></p><p>But I do understand that some people aren't comfortable with that (for whatever reason) and that's going to be an issue for them when they sit down with C&C.</p><p></p><p>The other thing that's either a flaw or a strength depending on your tastes, is the lack of mechanical differentiation between characters of the same type. Some people want to see mechanical reinforcement of being different, rather than just having some different base attributes, and roleplaying the personality. They'd like to be able to have an entire group of Rogues that all have their own specialties and capabilities and have that represented mechanically, rather than strictly based on roleplaying.</p><p></p><p>If you don't care about mechanical differentiation, want something that's lighter than default d20/D&D and want to be able to blend together older D&D stuff with newer stuff with relative ease, I'd say C&C wins hands down. There isn't really anything out there that tries for this sort of thing.</p><p></p><p>It does have some determined anachronisms (like individual XP tracks for each class) but they can be worked around (stripped out) without any real problem.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Scurvy_Platypus, post: 3915858, member: 43283"] No, it's a lot more along the lines of: "Every person I know of that dresses up and acts like a goth is into vampires and being angsty. I don't want people to think I'm into vampires since I hate 'em, and my life is fine, so I'm not going to dress and act like a goth." I know you're still not going to get the logic, but let me try explaining it this way... For some people (like myself), a strong component of the game is the social aspect. I want something I'm going to be able to play with other people. If every person that I find that talks about the game and is interested in the game, is someone that I don't like, or wouldn't want to spend time with, I'm not going to buy the game. That doesn't mean that every single person that exists and likes the game is a complete jerk. It means that the majority of people are ones I don't feel like dealing with, and it's not worth my time to sort through all the jerks in the _hope_ that I'll get lucky and find cool people. Gamers are a factional lot. The games that they like (or dislike) are one easy way that people split themselves into factions. Heck, here you've got ENWorld which is basically for the D&D (3E, soon to be 4E) faction. Dragonsfoot deals pretty much with older D&D. You'll find people within each faction that are nice or not, but each group does have an overall "tone" to their conversations. Instead of refusing to play D&D/d20 because I really detest the complexity, I look and see if I'd even like playing with the people first. If the answer is "Yes", then I start to worry about whether there's a rules-lighter crowd I can fall in with, or if I could get others that'd be willing to go with something lighter. Disliking a game because of the people that act as the face of it, is no more rational or irrational than liking or disliking a game for its level of complexity. After all, you can always add more rules to it or remove rules, just like you can try and find someone nice to represent a game that seems to be mainly represented by people you don't like. And yet people are playing C&C at least in part because they dislike rule complexity. Or how about this one... try getting most gamers to play an rpg that doesn't use dice. The vast majority of them wouldn't do it. Of those that tried, a smaller portion would actually enjoy the experience. Most gamers like to roll their dice. There's no real "rational" reason for refusing to play diceless games, it's just the line they draw for themselves. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And just so I'm at least slightly relevant to the topic, I'll reiterate my position: I _really_ like C&C's approach to stuff. It's simple: Make an Attribute check to see if you succeed. If your class is skilled at the task, add your level to your dice roll. Beat the threshold and you succeed. That's awesome, and it basically covers how C&C handles most of the stuff. The subsystems of the game are kept to a minimum, allowing things to speed up even more. I like that the system strips down so far, and then I can plug in individual bits to add complexity to those elements that I think need more complexity, or that I'd like to focus on. The flaw in C&C stictly speaking in system terms (and my own personal opinion) is that many people these days are not comfortable with the rules of the game being something that's either negotiated by the group, or left in the hands of the GM. People _like_ the rules being established by a some other person entirely, and additionally like the fact that the rules "apply" to the GM as well as the players. It provides a common baseline for a conversation about the game to happen. For example, D&D's Difficulty Class thingy. A lot of the DC checks of D&D are "hardcoded"... if you make over DC of X, then you get result of Y. Like Open Lock. An Average lock is a DC of 25. I might not know what the particular difficulty of any specific lock is that my character tries to open, but I _know_ that if I can consistently make over a DC of 25, my character should be able to consistently get into some place that has Average locks. If I'm told in game that the place we're going to try and break into is well secured, I can guess it's going to have better than average locks, and even be able to do a basic assessment of just what my character is capable of. I also know that the GM (generally speaking) isn't going to be giving me some insane number to beat for an average test. If it's an average lock, and he tells me I have to beat a DC of 45, I know there's something strange going on. It might be something special about that particular situation, or it could be the GM trying to screw with me. Over time, I can figure out if it's the GM screwing with me or not. Without a common baseline in rules, people can become annoyed and upset because they expected one thing, and the GM expected something else. In other words, the rules are the "language" of the game and how things get done. Having said that, I personally prefer rules-lighter systems. I don't mind negotiating the rules with the group. Or "making my own language" if you want to stick with that metaphor. As long as everyone else is fine with it, everything is good. But I do understand that some people aren't comfortable with that (for whatever reason) and that's going to be an issue for them when they sit down with C&C. The other thing that's either a flaw or a strength depending on your tastes, is the lack of mechanical differentiation between characters of the same type. Some people want to see mechanical reinforcement of being different, rather than just having some different base attributes, and roleplaying the personality. They'd like to be able to have an entire group of Rogues that all have their own specialties and capabilities and have that represented mechanically, rather than strictly based on roleplaying. If you don't care about mechanical differentiation, want something that's lighter than default d20/D&D and want to be able to blend together older D&D stuff with newer stuff with relative ease, I'd say C&C wins hands down. There isn't really anything out there that tries for this sort of thing. It does have some determined anachronisms (like individual XP tracks for each class) but they can be worked around (stripped out) without any real problem. [/QUOTE]
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