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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8741535" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Okay, but I also pointed out that many people saw Bards and Rogues being the absolute best grapplers in the game as a problem. They don't have the iconic fantasy roll of being the person who manhandles the massive ogre or golem. Yes, expertise allowed you to be a better grappler, but it also wrecked the fantasy unless you had a feat investment. Fixing that is good, IMO. And then you get to talking about casting spells, which, fine, but at that point we can instead use the 1st level Silvery Barbs to give disadvantage on the save or have someone spamming mind sliver to give them a -1d4 on the save. What you are talking about is purely the extra optimization, and we have optimization for saving throws. Additionally, you no longer need Enlarge, because being large confers no benefits or penalties to grappling. Yes, things have changed, but I don't think that means we can't optimize it again. And I think it is far more useful to look at a single character grappling a single creature, rather than a single character getting to buff spells which require concentration (meaning two casters) because we can make that swing either way.Sure. However, since it is an attack, you can make an attack of oppotunity that grapples, reduces speed to zero, and grants disadvantage on attacks. The enemy gets to make the save sooner, but there is no cost here.I guess what I'm not getting is that the WORST thing is that the enemy doesn't need to use their action (which if they are as terrible compared to you they won't bother doing anyways) and they might break free at the end of their turn, in which case you can grapple again. I mean, I know if I was a DM and I knew you had two buff spells running and a third spell for spike growth, and you were a bard rolling 2d20+7 vs my 1d20+4, I'm just going to attack you three times instead. It would be a pointless waste of my action to try and escape. Now with these new rules.... I just attack you instead, because I don't need to use my action to escape. The only difference is that if you want to continue cheese grating the troll, it isn't free. I don't see a difference in the practical application of actions, because Grapple used to do NOTHING beyond reducing speed and allowing you to drag someone. So it wasn't penalizing the creature to remain grappled and just try to kill you instead of using an action which would be negated when you used your next action to put me back in the same position. This just feels more dynamic to me.I fully expect the grappler feat to give saves disadvantage, that design space is right there, it may also allow you to grapple and deal damage with an unarmed strike, similar to how Tavern Brawler works right now. Or maybe it gives you an option to restrain them without penalizing you quite as heavily.</blockquote>

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