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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8741624" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>And new options were opened up. Every example so far of current optimization has included spellcasters casting spells, you can still do that with the new rules to optimize the grapple. 100% of options were removed and 100% of new options were created.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Maybe it seems that way because you continually ignore my posts? </p><p></p><p>The math change is only massive IF YOU ARE TALKING EXPERTISE. </p><p></p><p>A level 5 fighter with proficiency in Athletics is getting 1d20+3+3 for a total of +6. The level 5 fighter in this system is getting 1d20+3+3 for a +6 to hit, and their save DC is 8+3+3 for 14. Your fighter likely has a 16 AC, using standard equipment.</p><p></p><p>Let's stop talking trolls and iron golems for a second and say that we grapple an Orc Raider. They get a +3 and have a 13 AC. </p><p></p><p>The old way gave the fighter an opposed roll, 1d20+6 vs 1d20+3, If I understand the math correctly that gave the fighter a 62% chance of starting the grapple and maintaining it whenever the orc attempted to break out. </p><p></p><p>The new way gives the fighter a 70% chance of initiating the grapple (they need to roll a 7 or better) and the orc only has a 50% chance of breaking free. If they decide to attack and shove instead, they would have a... 50% chance, because +5 to hit AC 16. </p><p></p><p>So, we are 8% more likely to start the grapple, and 12% less likely to maintain it. Considering DnD works in 5% increments for things like this, it is a change, but I'm not sure it is massive. Significant sure, but the math still works in the fighters favor. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But here is the other thing... why would the orc try and break the grapple? That's the big thing I think you are ignoring. The Orc is perfectly fine hitting the fighter instead of wasting an action to simply break free of the grapple and standing there to be grappled again, because they can't disengage so they can't move away from the fighter anyways. </p><p></p><p>And this same logic applied to the PCs. Monsters that grappled on a hit basically just held anyone with any sense of system mastery forever, because taking your entire action to break free was never worth it. </p><p></p><p>Let's move on to this fighter and Bard fighting a Vampire Spawn. They can grapple when they hit with their claws, escape DC 13. There is no opposed check. So, the Fighter and the bard are very likely to escape that grapple.. but it costs them their entire action, and if they move away they get an opportunity attack, which will reestablish the grapple. Or they can break free... and next turn get attacked which reestablishes the grapple. There is no benefit here to breaking the grapple instead of just hitting the enemy. </p><p></p><p>This change means that you can potentially escape automatically at the end of your turn, which means that not only are you not tempted to make a poor tactical choice, but since you are attacking, you have a chance to use an attack to shove and break the grapple while escaping. </p><p></p><p>The thing is, these rules cut both ways. PCs are more likely to deal with auto-grappling monsters, and monsters aren't ruined by specially built grappling builds.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8741624, member: 6801228"] And new options were opened up. Every example so far of current optimization has included spellcasters casting spells, you can still do that with the new rules to optimize the grapple. 100% of options were removed and 100% of new options were created. Maybe it seems that way because you continually ignore my posts? The math change is only massive IF YOU ARE TALKING EXPERTISE. A level 5 fighter with proficiency in Athletics is getting 1d20+3+3 for a total of +6. The level 5 fighter in this system is getting 1d20+3+3 for a +6 to hit, and their save DC is 8+3+3 for 14. Your fighter likely has a 16 AC, using standard equipment. Let's stop talking trolls and iron golems for a second and say that we grapple an Orc Raider. They get a +3 and have a 13 AC. The old way gave the fighter an opposed roll, 1d20+6 vs 1d20+3, If I understand the math correctly that gave the fighter a 62% chance of starting the grapple and maintaining it whenever the orc attempted to break out. The new way gives the fighter a 70% chance of initiating the grapple (they need to roll a 7 or better) and the orc only has a 50% chance of breaking free. If they decide to attack and shove instead, they would have a... 50% chance, because +5 to hit AC 16. So, we are 8% more likely to start the grapple, and 12% less likely to maintain it. Considering DnD works in 5% increments for things like this, it is a change, but I'm not sure it is massive. Significant sure, but the math still works in the fighters favor. But here is the other thing... why would the orc try and break the grapple? That's the big thing I think you are ignoring. The Orc is perfectly fine hitting the fighter instead of wasting an action to simply break free of the grapple and standing there to be grappled again, because they can't disengage so they can't move away from the fighter anyways. And this same logic applied to the PCs. Monsters that grappled on a hit basically just held anyone with any sense of system mastery forever, because taking your entire action to break free was never worth it. Let's move on to this fighter and Bard fighting a Vampire Spawn. They can grapple when they hit with their claws, escape DC 13. There is no opposed check. So, the Fighter and the bard are very likely to escape that grapple.. but it costs them their entire action, and if they move away they get an opportunity attack, which will reestablish the grapple. Or they can break free... and next turn get attacked which reestablishes the grapple. There is no benefit here to breaking the grapple instead of just hitting the enemy. This change means that you can potentially escape automatically at the end of your turn, which means that not only are you not tempted to make a poor tactical choice, but since you are attacking, you have a chance to use an attack to shove and break the grapple while escaping. The thing is, these rules cut both ways. PCs are more likely to deal with auto-grappling monsters, and monsters aren't ruined by specially built grappling builds. [/QUOTE]
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