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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8741645" data-attributes="member: 6801228">But you are actually helping prove that the new grapple rules are an improvement. Before you never grappled unless there was something to drag the enemy into. Grappling as a stand-alone factor was useless. Now grappling has tanking usefulness and focuses attacks by granting disadvantage against allies. This is 100% an improvement.Increasing your strength score scales grappling. Increasing your ability to hit scales grappling. There are ways to decrease enemy saves that scales grappling. Seems all that is more than nothing. And we can easily assume that there is going to be a feat which scales grappling. And again, you are pointing out an entire reason some of these grapple changes are good. Because now there is a reason to grapple, even if someone didn't cast a spell to make dangerous terrain. It has benefits, and since this is only the baseline with no extra bells and whistles, this speaks well to the chance of improving it further. And frankly, if that is your only concern, that we don't see enough pieces that show us the improvement, then instead of going scorched earth everything must remain the same, just be ambivalent because we can't see enough to fully judge the sub-system.</blockquote>